Bobs buggered engine thread

[Odin]

oh dear now rob please explain how damage to the bottom half of the piston would be due to mapping wouldn't the crown have been damaged first looks like bobby might be saying sorry to someone

Tell you what mate get the unlock code for the ECU from your mate and let the world see just what sort of map bobby got for his hard earned ;-) .

It's obvious to anybody that Blobbys engine has suffered a catastrophic failure of some kind,

And only letting people see the map will settle the argument either way.


Rob

 

[pulsarboby]

ive just explained how it can happen alan!

not a case of me being nasty, but i know exactly why it happened too!
nothing to do with the way the engine was run in. its suffered from huge amounts of fuel going through which will cause damage to the rings, bores and sides of piston.

the tops would be damaged through a car running too lean, which will cause heatspots on piston crowns and eventually hole to the top side

 

[gtirx2]

looks like its been run in softly like you said in a post earlier when it was rebuilt then when it had some heat through it the expansion made it catch scrap etc but i may be totally wrong

I don't think being run in softly would cause that sort of damage,if it was run in that bad i would only have though you would get abit of blow by and a slow R.
If it was getting that much blow by to heat the piston up that much to cause it to try seizing on the bore i would of though it would have melted the top of the piston first,like you get on cast pistons when you do a ring land?
It could be that the bores where not bored to the right clearences,but i would of thought that would of showed up a lot sooner and seized the engine soild if it was that bad.
To me it looks like bore wash,but i am no expert.

 

[Fazz]

but saying that a standed block at 87mm bore is at its limit also.

Give or take a mm or so :lol:

I'm running 87.5mm pistons on standard block spank you very much without problems and 5k miles now.

Bobby - Sorry to hear your on the wrong end of some dodgy work by looks of it!

Hope you get to bottom of it and some compensation where required.

I know how you feel having paid for a rebuild with untorqued rod bolts and it all failing at 80mph on motorway....

There are some monkeys out there, and my opinion is Name and Shame. Especially on an owners club so others can be made aware of your experiences.
Mine was pretty factual, perhaps get a second opinion from someone neutral and then post up results for all and see if any compensation/comeback is presented as it should be.


Sorry for your bad fortune mate.

 

[gtirx2]

Give or take a mm or so :lol:

I'm running 87.5mm pistons on standard block spank you very much without problems and 5k miles now.

my mistake then;-) ,but at 87.5 your bores must be very thin indeed.

 

[pulsarboby]

no its gonna be left at that fazz. not worth all the aggro and costs involved mate!

the map (never seen it) wasnt the cause anyway, lets just say our tuner friend needs to take a good look at his wiring skills, as well as other things too;-)


im just gonna rebuild it all again and get it mapped properly next time!

 

[Fazz]

Fair enough. Can't recommend RC Developments highly enough then if you splash out and can locate a Power FC so mate.

Best of luck with it all. Painful and Costly. Been there.

 

[jpward]

:shock: That's some unexpected results there Bobby :?

I did not have as much damage as that on my first engine when I melted a nice 8mm hole in the piston crown through to the lower ring!

Can you take the block and pistons to a local machine shop and get someone to check the bore run out and also the piston diameters on each cyliner should cost about a £10 and then you can rule that out. I would have thought more pistons would have been scored?

What about the injector for that cyliner is it functioning ok and not stuck open?

 

[stevepudney]

Bad luck mate

all the bores and crowns look the same, wasn't pot No 3 supposed to be the most effected, no carbon deposits anywhere, strange !!

I'd expect some black power like deposits from the over fuelling

how far did you drive the engine after you knew something was wrong with it ?

as a last resort I got some injectors from "he shall go unnamed" they were apparently made by venom performance, after fitting them I drove about 5 miles on them before one stuck open and I limped about 3 miles home with masses and masses of white smoke behind me, anyway I got home and left the car to cool down. On returning to the car I noticed the the fuel gauge had gone from 1/4 full to near empty and on removing the plugs I found pot number 2 had near an inch of fuel sitting in the bore, I actually had to use a syringe to get it out.

Anyway my point is that I suffered severe bore wash due to a stuck open injector and the cylinder in question dispelled near a 1/4 of a tank in about 3 miles but it suffered no damage and still retains the same comp pressure as the other 3, I realise I must have been very lucky not to receive any damage but this was probably down to only travelling a few miles at about 3 miles an hour but Bob you must have gone some distance to get damage like that so evenly on all 4 pots.

I could be wrong as there not brill photos but to my eye it looks more like a mechanical failure, oval bores or the piston to bore tolerances being to oversized or something, that would account for the even damage to all pots.

Steve

 

[pulsarboby]

:shock: That's some unexpected results there Bobby :?

I did not have as much damage as that on my first engine when I melted a nice 8mm hole in the piston crown through to the lower ring!

Can you take the block and pistons to a local machine shop and get someone to check the bore run out and also the piston diameters on each cyliner should cost about a £10 and then you can rule that out. I would have thought more pistons would have been scored?

What about the injector for that cyliner is it functioning ok and not stuck open?

the company that did the boring are a very well respected company which ive used for years, and i know the cylinders were fine, it was running 170psi a cylinder prior to the mapping so ive no reason to fault there work.
the injectors were my initial thought as they were secondhand, but they were the first thing i had tested after the prob appeared and there are all working 100%.

 

[Keira]

bob, your pics suck :lol: whats the ring damage like ? i really cant tell from the pics, it looks like the damage is to the gudgeon pin side of the piston and adjacent part of the cylinder wall...

For those that dont know if you run too rich to the point of borewash the rings will get damaged first, the excess fuel will run down the cylinder walls taking the oil with it. This promotes direct metal-to-metal contact between the rings and the cylinder wall. This does several things. The upper ring begins to wear. The middle ring is designed as a tapered oil scraper and the taper will begin to wear down until it becomes flat rather than angled. When this happens, it can no longer control oil from the combustion chamber. The final thing that happens is the cross hatch begins to wear off of the cylinder wall. Alot of people think that the cross hatch is only there to help seat the rings, but it also has a secondary purpose. which is to hold tiny microscopic, infact, markturbo penis sized amounts of oil in the grooves to help lubricate between the ring and cylinder walls. With the walls smooth and no oil control help from the middle ring and a tired upper ring, oil will eventually mix with fuel in the combustion chamber.

we all know what happens when oil mixes with fuel....weak octane....detonation.

blowby wont cause any of it, thats a by product of the combustion process, nothing else, it can weaken the oil and blow out oil seals if its excessive but it wont heat up a piston to the point of failure.

im not here to defend or back anyone up but you'd struggle to f@ck up mapping an emanage so bad that you'd cause borewash, your afrs would be ridiculous for starters and you'd have black smoke pouring out like an old derv :lol: Remember, all you are doing with an emanage is compensating for bigger injectors, adjusting settings for bigger afm and then trimming the original ecus ignition and fuel maps, the man in question has done enough of them now on similar spec'd cars, as lets be honest, none of you do anything that different to anyone else that he's going to start randomly adding so much fuel at any point in the map that it will cause whats been claimed has happened.

 

[pulsarboby]

Bad luck mate

all the bores and crowns look the same, wasn't pot No 3 supposed to be the most effected, no carbon deposits anywhere, strange !!

I'd expect some black power like deposits from the over fuelling

how far did you drive the engine after you knew something was wrong with it ?

as a last resort I got some injectors from "he shall go unnamed" they were apparently made by venom performance, after fitting them I drove about 5 miles on them before one stuck open and I limped about 3 miles home with masses and masses of white smoke behind me, anyway I got home and left the car to cool down. On returning to the car I noticed the the fuel gauge had gone from 1/4 full to near empty and on removing the plugs I found pot number 2 had near an inch of fuel sitting in the bore, I actually had to use a syringe to get it out.

Anyway my point is that I suffered severe bore wash due to a stuck open injector and the cylinder in question dispelled near a 1/4 of a tank in about 3 miles but it suffered no damage and still retains the same comp pressure as the other 3, I realise I must have been very lucky not to receive any damage but this was probably down to only travelling a few miles at about 3 miles an hour but Bob you must have gone some distance to get damage like that so evenly on all 4 pots.

I could be wrong as there not brill photos but to my eye it looks more like a mechanical failure, oval bores or the piston to bore tolerances being to oversized or something, that would account for the even damage to all pots.

Steve

they were smothered in soot steve, along with all the plugs,(except no 3 as that was coated in oil) i cleaned them all off before i took the photos!

and you said you had masses of white smoke! well thats not unburnt fuel, white smoke is water vapour! black smoke is unburnt fuel.

as previously stated injectors were checked and comps were excellent which rules out faulty boring.

the car was driven for a total of 135 miles after mapping which is enough to booger it i now know!

 

[Keira]

I could be wrong as there not brill photos but to my eye it looks more like a mechanical failure, oval bores or the piston to bore tolerances being to oversized or something, that would account for the even damage to all pots.

Steve

that was my thoughts on seeing the pics tbh steve, it looks to me like the skirt is contacting the cylinder wall, clearances maybe to tight, pistons expanded when its got hot from running on boost for a period of time resulting in scuffage..

you say oversized but it would've been slapping its coont off if it was too loose.

 

[Keira]

maybe noone will ever know....

hope you get it sorted bob

 

[pulsarboby]

yeah no point in me whining kieron, whats done is done!
will just build it all up again with a new block and pistons etc.

the good news is the head is all ok, and as you well know thats where the majority of the money lies.
if i can get these pistons pretty sharpish it will be up and running again in a week or two.
then perhaps i can use the car and start to get it setup for the track.
and theres the added bonus of me adding mics quaife this time too:-D

 

[jpward]

yeah no point in me whining kieron, whats done is done!
will just build it all up again with a new block and pistons etc.

the good news is the head is all ok, and as you well know thats where the majority of the money lies.
if i can get these pistons pretty sharpish it will be up and running again in a week or two.
then perhaps i can use the car and start to get it setup for the track.
and theres the added bonus of me adding mics quaife this time too:-D

ericsperformanceparts@gmail.com has wiesco's or JE's in 87mm in stock with a 3-5 day delivery time ;-)

 

[Keira]

yeah no point in me whining kieron, whats done is done!
will just build it all up again with a new block and pistons etc.

if it makes you feel any better a mate in oz with a very high spec'd r, thats taken him over 2 years to build, fired his up recently and it promptly spat its coolant out between the block and head :doh:

 

[pulsarboby]

probably goafers had nested in his cylinders and they spat there dummies out when the little mountains started moving up and down :lol:



cheers jp thats where i was gonna order them from, should hopefully be here by the end of the week, with a little luck!

 

[stevepudney]

they were smothered in soot steve, along with all the plugs,(except no 3 as that was coated in oil) i cleaned them all off before i took the photos!

and you said you had masses of white smoke! well thats not unburnt fuel, white smoke is water vapour! black smoke is unburnt fuel.

as previously stated injectors were checked and comps were excellent which rules out faulty boring.

the car was driven for a total of 135 miles after mapping which is enough to booger it i now know!

Black smoke, white smoke, whatever, I forget tbh, all I remember was the overwhelming embarrassment I felt driving this limping siht heap only that short distance

I wasn't suggesting you did have stuck injector/s mate, quite the opposite, I was merely comparing my experience of severe borewash to your tragedy, as I'm sure that with your obvious mechanical proficiency your not daft enough to risk something so basic as a goofed injector.

Now sitting on the fence and playing Devils advocate for a moment not being on anyones side..............

What I don't understand is how it can be put down to bad mapping, as in your situation the emanage is the only thing that was mapped not the OEM ecu.

To explain to anyone reading this that doesn't already know, the emanage is a piggyback ecu that is wired in conjunction with the standard Nissan ecu and the emanage is only programed to work "outside" the realm of the OEM ecu's ability.

So in other words, if you have an emanage fitted and it's wired in correctly, when you turn the key and start the engine, it would be the factory settings of the standard Nissan ecu controlling the fuelling e.t.c. and the standard Nissan ecu continues to control things until engine load demands more fuel e.t.c. than the standard ecu can cope with, it's only at this point that the programmable/adjustable settings of the Emanage come into play. Now, from memory wasn't your car only set to 1.2 - 1.4 bar boost, if so that would mean that for the majority of the time the requirements of your engines fuelling e.t.c. would be being dealt with by the standard Nissan ecu and the settings in the emanage only coming into play when you were in the higher reaches of your set boost.

So if you had only covered 135 miles, in that sort time you must of got some sort of signal that things weren't running as they should do ??.......... and hadn't the rebuilt engine only covered something like 500 - 600 miles of running in anyway ??............ that combined with the relatively low boost you were running...............how did so much damage occur in such a short time??

It’s a mystery :? who knows the answer ?

Hope you get it sorted soon mate

Steve

 

[Dasilva]

Boby

Its in a sorry state i'm sure its nothing you can't sort, reminds me of my current engine state.

best of luck you going to try horsham developments?