Plug and play Coil On plug upgrade - would this interest you?

[Fusion Ed]

I'd be very interested. Then I can run a Delphi Ion sensing coil pack on cylinder 4 to use with my Uni project
Ypu'd be interested in that Ed when your mapping an ECU on the rollers.... I have designed a circuit and software to 'see' whats going on inside the cylinder using Ion sensing. Trouble is I had to build an external PSU as the pusar doesn't have individual coil packs.....until now anyways

Yes that's a good system, and would be interested to see how you get on with that, Its not used to my opinion in the after market world. It is however used by Porsche/Bosch?

 

[warpspeed]

Then I can run a Delphi Ion sensing coil pack on cylinder 4 to use with my Uni project I have designed a circuit and software to 'see' whats going on inside the cylinder using Ion sensing.

Sounds interesting, can you start a new thread to tell us more please?

 

[jambo_gtir]

Yes that's a good system, and would be interested to see how you get on with that, Its not used to my opinion in the after market world. It is however used by Porsche/Bosch?

Yes Harely Davison use it aswell as a method of detecting knock. I had it working on a mates car briefly and it works. The only problem I have is I have to run an external PSU to provide me with 300V. I designed my own PSU to run off the car battery but it's a bit bulky and crap really for a real solution.
I still need to design the software for my laptop so I can extract the data and display it real time graphically.
It would be so much easier to have the delphi coil pack though: http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/gas/ignsys/ionized/
This provides an output that my signal processor can easily use (with some filtering method).

I thought it would be ideal for when your mapping a car Ed on the rollers as you want have to listen for knock, you can see where the PPP is in relation to TDC and therefore phisically see whats happening as you advance the timing.

I tried to make my design fully automatic where it would look at the PPP in the cylinder during combustion and then compare it to TDC of the said cylinder. The aim would be to adjust the ignition to keep the PPP as near to TDC as possible for maximum efficiency (power).
You can actually see the engine knocking if the timing isn't correct.

The theory behinf it isnt too complex, it's just trying to program a microcontroller to carry out the required alogrithms quickly and correctly.

I'll start a new thread.

 

[warpspeed]

Cheers

 

[tenfoloten]

I want try AEM pencil coil...what do you think about?

 

[Makaveli_se7en]

AEM coils will need a separate CDI unit, unlike the kit being offered by Ed.

I need to work out if I'm better off selling my current ignition system and going for this. I currently have what is essentially a Norris Design COP setup but with an M&W Pro14 instead of a 12. The retail for the standard set up (with ND tax :lol is £1300. Even if I keep it I'd be very interested in the trigger set up to remove the distributor, will there be an option to buy indvidual parts or will it be a complete kit?

 

[Fusion Ed]

You could have the module without the coils, then send the 4 trigger wires to the Pro14. I gather you have not fitted this yet?

 

[Makaveli_se7en]

Nope not fitted, still in the parts collection along with everything else. I picked it uo from Mike (The bear), he was running it on his 600bhp Pulsar so didn't pay anywhere near the asking price

 

[Fusion Ed]

Good thing too!! I've fitted the M&W pro 12's on a 600hp evo I have come in, but tbh will probably take it off soon and put these coil packs on instead. Just looks neater and removed yet another box to go wrong from the engine bay.

 

[tenfoloten]

I use an haltech paltinum sport ecu..
not std ecu
it require the separate cdi unit,too?

 

[Fusion Ed]

Sport 1000 has 4 coil outputs. It can drive these coils (with a correct loom) directly.

 

[Fusion Ed]

I've been doing a lot of work on this, and have been calculating various conditions possible and protection against any sync issues. I thought I'd share a few interesting facts.

At 6000 rpm, the engine crank rotates 36 degrees in 1ms (0.001sec)

It takes 3-6ms to charge a typical ignition coil. This means it can take upto 216 engine crank degrees @ 6000rpm for the ignition coil to fully charge. This sounds fine until you realise we have to do it once every 180deg for a single coil, so we are left with a situation where its not possible to fully charge the ignition coil every firing cycle at high rpms. This was made better by wasted spark ignition systems. You had twice as much time to charge the coils, and also could dump the distributor, but you were still left with ignition leads.

So then we get to coil on plug, when run sequentially we have loads of time to charge the coils as if needed two can be charged at the same time, but as the coils sit on the plugs and there are no leads or lossy distributors we get smaller coils with quicker charge times and away we go!

So where am i now? Well assuming the plugs arrive for the coils I can make up a loom and get a prototype running on my car possibly this week... We shall see what happens..

 

[stevepudney]

I've been doing a lot of work on this, and have been calculating various conditions possible and protection against any sync issues. I thought I'd share a few interesting facts.

At 6000 rpm, the engine crank rotates 36 degrees in 1ms (0.001sec)

It takes 3-6ms to charge a typical ignition coil. This means it can take upto 216 engine crank degrees @ 6000rpm for the ignition coil to fully charge. This sounds fine until you realise we have to do it once every 180deg for a single coil, so we are left with a situation where its not possible to fully charge the ignition coil every firing cycle at high rpms. This was made better by wasted spark ignition systems. You had twice as much time to charge the coils, and also could dump the distributor, but you were still left with ignition leads.

So then we get to coil on plug, when run sequentially we have loads of time to charge the coils as if needed two can be charged at the same time, but as the coils sit on the plugs and there are no leads or lossy distributors we get smaller coils with quicker charge times and away we go!

So where am i now? Well assuming the plugs arrive for the coils I can make up a loom and get a prototype running on my car possibly this week... We shall see what happens..

In other words then, does that mean with this system being that much more efficient then the OEM system we might see less ignition power loss at higher rpm, resulting in a more controllable power curve at higher rpm ?

 

[Fusion Ed]

Well if the fuel ignites it will burn regardless, there will only be a problem with the power curve at high rpm if there is a miss fire.

 

[jambo_gtir]

I've been doing a lot of work on this, and have been calculating various conditions possible and protection against any sync issues. I thought I'd share a few interesting facts.

At 6000 rpm, the engine crank rotates 36 degrees in 1ms (0.001sec)

It takes 3-6ms to charge a typical ignition coil. This means it can take upto 216 engine crank degrees @ 6000rpm for the ignition coil to fully charge. This sounds fine until you realise we have to do it once every 180deg for a single coil, so we are left with a situation where its not possible to fully charge the ignition coil every firing cycle at high rpms. This was made better by wasted spark ignition systems. You had twice as much time to charge the coils, and also could dump the distributor, but you were still left with ignition leads.

So then we get to coil on plug, when run sequentially we have loads of time to charge the coils as if needed two can be charged at the same time, but as the coils sit on the plugs and there are no leads or lossy distributors we get smaller coils with quicker charge times and away we go!

So where am i now? Well assuming the plugs arrive for the coils I can make up a loom and get a prototype running on my car possibly this week... We shall see what happens..

And with individual coils I can use the secondary winding to charge a cap and supply my 300V for long enough to gain the ion sensing results. Doesn't work with a dizzy as the circuit is obviously broken when the rotor passes the point.

As you say at 6000rpm, that's 100Hz which means the crank does one revolution every 10ms. I was interested in one cylinder (assuming the other 3 were running the same for now, even though they wouldn't) so for 1 combustion stroke i had 5ms of which i was only interested in 3ms (ignition, flame propagation and the PPP). I then had 15ms to run algorithms on the stored data.

Would be very good to have coil packs I'm excited lol.

 

[Fusion Ed]

What current do you need at 300v? Its really not hard to make that kind of voltage if its very low current.

 

[jambo_gtir]

The current varies which is what I measure with a simple current mirror circuit. It's typically only a few mA so hardly any current. As the amount of ions in the cylinder vary during combustion the current flow varies accordingly. I need to start a thread but haven't had time, got a whole project on it that goes into a bit too much detail lol

 

[Fusion Ed]

Never have too much detail, so essentially you need 300v @ at a few ma?

 

[jambo_gtir]

Never have too much detail, so essentially you need 300v @ at a few ma?

Yes mate, very low power. The Delphi coil just uses a large capacitor that stores some of the energy from the ignition which works well. I went a bit OTT designing a flyback inverter to give me a constant 300V from the 12V battery....it works, but a bit overkill. Now I have finished the uni project i need to refine the whole system a bit and make it work better. It's heavily software based though which makes it easier to modify.

 

[Fusion Ed]

You know that camera flash units often have around that voltage, those will work on the flyback design too most likely, also the primary avalanche voltage will be around that too I suspect.