Garret GT3076R - experienced opinions? - Vs 3071?
- Thread starter Fazz
- Start date
I was going to ask the same question, thanks ashills. Any idea what the power would be on a standard engine at 1.2 to 1.3 boost? Only other mods are Apexi FC. mongoose, plugs, Evo 6 Intercooler, K&N and Helix clutch.
Cheers
Phil
ps where is the best place to get a good 3071? They work out at £657 from ATP in the states.
Cheers
Phil
ps where is the best place to get a good 3071? They work out at £657 from ATP in the states.
First I would like to appologies to Campbellju (Jim) for behaving like a grumpy old man...(which i am) I was well out of order, sorry.
Did not realise there was a group buy of this Turbo. I cant seem to find the link but do not have the money together yet. Will have to see if I can get one ready for next season. Also have a list of other things to do to the car for next year, Rollcage, lighter seats, G/F Tailgate and Bonnet etc etc..... the list goes on.
Thanks again for a great link, very very informative.
Cheers
Phil
Did not realise there was a group buy of this Turbo. I cant seem to find the link but do not have the money together yet. Will have to see if I can get one ready for next season. Also have a list of other things to do to the car for next year, Rollcage, lighter seats, G/F Tailgate and Bonnet etc etc..... the list goes on.
Thanks again for a great link, very very informative.
Cheers
Phil
Fazz
New Member
ATP Turbo's View
Hey guys,
To confrim a bit more info from Turbo Supplier, I sent the following email to ATP
"Hi guys, I am enquiring about the difference in spool up or lag
> time on the above turbo's. I am leaning towards the 3071 - plan to
> run daily 400bhp on GTI-R. Sticking with internal wastegate for now
> and T25 flange.
>
> Can you confrim what the difference in rpm would be between the 2
> above - say with .64AR.
>
> I suspect the 3071 to spool and full boost around 2800rpm, with the
> 3076 around 3200rpm. would this be accurate?
"
The response was the following:
"On that engine, it's safe to say you'll see about 600 rpms difference
between the two turbos. The GT3071R is much nice for overall response so
only do the GT3076R if you need the extra flow or plan to run enough boost
pressure to take advantage of the extra flow at the top.
"
Interesting lag difference, and alos more boost required in order to get the best of the 3076 on the above set up anyway.
That, combined with all the experience and knowledge from owners on here has confirmed my choice of 3071 .
Still deciding on the .64 or .82 AR but ordering this week anyway.
Imagine if we had all been ready to order at same time... Hi can I've a group buy for 25 3071's please!
Hey guys,
To confrim a bit more info from Turbo Supplier, I sent the following email to ATP
"Hi guys, I am enquiring about the difference in spool up or lag
> time on the above turbo's. I am leaning towards the 3071 - plan to
> run daily 400bhp on GTI-R. Sticking with internal wastegate for now
> and T25 flange.
>
> Can you confrim what the difference in rpm would be between the 2
> above - say with .64AR.
>
> I suspect the 3071 to spool and full boost around 2800rpm, with the
> 3076 around 3200rpm. would this be accurate?
"
The response was the following:
"On that engine, it's safe to say you'll see about 600 rpms difference
between the two turbos. The GT3071R is much nice for overall response so
only do the GT3076R if you need the extra flow or plan to run enough boost
pressure to take advantage of the extra flow at the top.
"
Interesting lag difference, and alos more boost required in order to get the best of the 3076 on the above set up anyway.
That, combined with all the experience and knowledge from owners on here has confirmed my choice of 3071 .
Still deciding on the .64 or .82 AR but ordering this week anyway.
Imagine if we had all been ready to order at same time... Hi can I've a group buy for 25 3071's please!
hi !
got the 3071R from ATP with 0.86 A/R (there is no 0.84 as far as i know)
and 2.75 inlet.
it runs fine,but i cant confirm full boost in lower rpm.
i got 1.8 bar at around 3700 rpm,maybe 3500.
my turbo outlet is an uprated 3" one.
maybe thats the reason and i should install the original one.
what do you think ?
thanks
bye.
got the 3071R from ATP with 0.86 A/R (there is no 0.84 as far as i know)
and 2.75 inlet.
it runs fine,but i cant confirm full boost in lower rpm.
i got 1.8 bar at around 3700 rpm,maybe 3500.
my turbo outlet is an uprated 3" one.
maybe thats the reason and i should install the original one.
what do you think ?
thanks
bye.
Excuse the long post but I was doing some research last night that I thought would help Fazz (Ian) but thought I'd post it rather than keeping it offline again.
My 3071R is identical to Dooies and similar to Steves (Different A/R?) Both Stu and Steve helped me get to where I am with my car so I've got nothing to prove with either of them. We've all chosen subtley different paths. Steve and Dooies cars were setup by Edd, mine was setup by RC. I had considered Ed at one point but he lives blooming miles away, I equally have no axe to grind with Ed. I'm trying to document this so that when the next 3071 user comes along they can start to spot a broader pattern. If the details are wrong then please correct me.
Opinons first ;-) :lol: :lol: :kev:
Rishi has probably given more knowledge in his short posts than I will in this long winded one.
The compressor on the 3071 according to its map is around its most efficient (Lowest intake charge) between 1.6-1.8 Bar. On the turbine side, my .64A/r will happily hold boost at 1.8Bar all the way to my rev limiter. I personally don't need a bigger a/r on my turbine side, it will not help me generate anymore power. So for my engine and goals the 3071 .64 A/R is perfect. I was previously looking at a 2871 as I wanted reliability and thought I'd stay below 400hp. Instead I bought a Quaife, oil cooler and a few other bits and bobs to keep the hot and cold air sperated. Subjective opinon, in the 350hp - 380hp range, looking at the effeciency of the compressor, I would personally go for a 2871. If I was looking for over 430hp, I'd personally go for a 3076. My reasoning for these decisions are when I want to use the car hard I will be doing so for up to 20 minutes round a track, relaibility is more imporatant to me than maximising the performance of any given turbo setup.
Fazz keep doing your research, keep feeding it back as its all very interesting and remember that at worst it only takes a half a day to swap a turbo. ;-)
Experiences (More meaty stuff)
I've been looking through the few Datalogit plots I have and Gtech dyno plots (I'm away on business so can't get anymore in the next few weeks.) Sadly none of the logs of mine or on the forum are trying to achieve the same thing so I've had to make assumptions. Please correct me if they're not right ;-)
My turbo generates positive boost from 2K at about 0.5Bar which gives a nice meaty normal feeling car for around town. Looking at one log however, it starts to really come on boost at 3400rpm, that's later than Steve's that has a bigger A/R on the turbine. It gets worse, It then takes about 500rpm to hit full boost. So what's gone wrong then? Well remember first that my turbo is the same as dooie's with out knowing the detail of what his does its difficult to provide a benchmark.
It could be in the mapping, I asked for a safe map, I've got one that still delivers circa 400hp (Useful for when talking down the pub:doh: ). If the ignition curve were more aggressive then the turbo might come on sooner. This is something I will be trying myself over the coming months.
It could also be my 2.5" standard trubo elbow restricting peak torque and slowing the spool up in the 3-4Krpm range?
It could also be that the only reference data I have is over a similar 2 seconds but where I just floored it for a dyno plot from low revs, Ed's graph shows a steady change in throttle position for fine tuning the mapping. This doesn't change the level at which the turbo comes on boost. When changing between gear, the car takes about 0.25s to go from 0.5Bar back to 1.7Bar again so its not as if the turbo is inherently laggy! When driving the car normally and feeding in the the throttle, I never really notice this delay in spooling but my gut feel is it would be similar.
On a positive note, my turbo has never suffered with boost surge. When driven with a sensitive right foot, the turbo alway feels smooth torquey and responsive, its only when I drive like a novice I see this lag. However, not having any boost surge is a good thing and the reason why I chose to stick with the 2.5" elbow in the first place after chatting to Dooie.
When I'm doing the fine tuning on the map I will be able to learn more.
Conclusion :yawn: :yawn: :yawn: Finally!!
The engine/exhaust/map(boost) will probably have more of an affect on the turbo than an A/R of .64 or .84R.
.....but still pick the turbo that's right for your car/goals (present and/or future) as the rest would be equal on whatever turbo you choose.
If you're still awake, Ian I hope that helped a little more. Anyone else please comment if you think I've been inaccurate, its the only way I'll learn too.
Like I said, Rishi said that quicker :doh: :lol:
My 3071R is identical to Dooies and similar to Steves (Different A/R?) Both Stu and Steve helped me get to where I am with my car so I've got nothing to prove with either of them. We've all chosen subtley different paths. Steve and Dooies cars were setup by Edd, mine was setup by RC. I had considered Ed at one point but he lives blooming miles away, I equally have no axe to grind with Ed. I'm trying to document this so that when the next 3071 user comes along they can start to spot a broader pattern. If the details are wrong then please correct me.
Opinons first ;-) :lol: :lol: :kev:
Rishi has probably given more knowledge in his short posts than I will in this long winded one.
The compressor on the 3071 according to its map is around its most efficient (Lowest intake charge) between 1.6-1.8 Bar. On the turbine side, my .64A/r will happily hold boost at 1.8Bar all the way to my rev limiter. I personally don't need a bigger a/r on my turbine side, it will not help me generate anymore power. So for my engine and goals the 3071 .64 A/R is perfect. I was previously looking at a 2871 as I wanted reliability and thought I'd stay below 400hp. Instead I bought a Quaife, oil cooler and a few other bits and bobs to keep the hot and cold air sperated. Subjective opinon, in the 350hp - 380hp range, looking at the effeciency of the compressor, I would personally go for a 2871. If I was looking for over 430hp, I'd personally go for a 3076. My reasoning for these decisions are when I want to use the car hard I will be doing so for up to 20 minutes round a track, relaibility is more imporatant to me than maximising the performance of any given turbo setup.
Fazz keep doing your research, keep feeding it back as its all very interesting and remember that at worst it only takes a half a day to swap a turbo. ;-)
Experiences (More meaty stuff)
I've been looking through the few Datalogit plots I have and Gtech dyno plots (I'm away on business so can't get anymore in the next few weeks.) Sadly none of the logs of mine or on the forum are trying to achieve the same thing so I've had to make assumptions. Please correct me if they're not right ;-)
My turbo generates positive boost from 2K at about 0.5Bar which gives a nice meaty normal feeling car for around town. Looking at one log however, it starts to really come on boost at 3400rpm, that's later than Steve's that has a bigger A/R on the turbine. It gets worse, It then takes about 500rpm to hit full boost. So what's gone wrong then? Well remember first that my turbo is the same as dooie's with out knowing the detail of what his does its difficult to provide a benchmark.
It could be in the mapping, I asked for a safe map, I've got one that still delivers circa 400hp (Useful for when talking down the pub:doh: ). If the ignition curve were more aggressive then the turbo might come on sooner. This is something I will be trying myself over the coming months.
It could also be my 2.5" standard trubo elbow restricting peak torque and slowing the spool up in the 3-4Krpm range?
It could also be that the only reference data I have is over a similar 2 seconds but where I just floored it for a dyno plot from low revs, Ed's graph shows a steady change in throttle position for fine tuning the mapping. This doesn't change the level at which the turbo comes on boost. When changing between gear, the car takes about 0.25s to go from 0.5Bar back to 1.7Bar again so its not as if the turbo is inherently laggy! When driving the car normally and feeding in the the throttle, I never really notice this delay in spooling but my gut feel is it would be similar.
On a positive note, my turbo has never suffered with boost surge. When driven with a sensitive right foot, the turbo alway feels smooth torquey and responsive, its only when I drive like a novice I see this lag. However, not having any boost surge is a good thing and the reason why I chose to stick with the 2.5" elbow in the first place after chatting to Dooie.
When I'm doing the fine tuning on the map I will be able to learn more.
Conclusion :yawn: :yawn: :yawn: Finally!!
The engine/exhaust/map(boost) will probably have more of an affect on the turbo than an A/R of .64 or .84R.
.....but still pick the turbo that's right for your car/goals (present and/or future) as the rest would be equal on whatever turbo you choose.
If you're still awake, Ian I hope that helped a little more. Anyone else please comment if you think I've been inaccurate, its the only way I'll learn too.
Like I said, Rishi said that quicker :doh: :lol:
Fazz
New Member
Thanks Jim,
Throw some more cats amoungst the pigeons!
I'm also probably going with the same spec as yours, sticking standard down pipe and going for .64 AR... so it'll be good to see how my graphs come up.
I find it hard to see your spool up rates, 3.4krpm or 4k rpm... I would have thought the .64AR would help this be quicker.
So indeed as your conclusions show, the down pipe could be a factor - Other graphs with early sppol up rates have the 3" Janspeed downpipe's.
Different mappers also as you suggest.
Perhaps I should get the .84AR and use the standard down pipe so we can rule that out!
Ed/Rishi/Ashills - any views on whether the .64 or .84AR would work better on teh standard downpipe....? Certainly, I would have thought Jim's 3.4-4k spool up can only relate to either teh map or the standard downpipe...
Any other graphs with standard downpipes for comparison??
Throw some more cats amoungst the pigeons!
I'm also probably going with the same spec as yours, sticking standard down pipe and going for .64 AR... so it'll be good to see how my graphs come up.
I find it hard to see your spool up rates, 3.4krpm or 4k rpm... I would have thought the .64AR would help this be quicker.
So indeed as your conclusions show, the down pipe could be a factor - Other graphs with early sppol up rates have the 3" Janspeed downpipe's.
Different mappers also as you suggest.
Perhaps I should get the .84AR and use the standard down pipe so we can rule that out!
Ed/Rishi/Ashills - any views on whether the .64 or .84AR would work better on teh standard downpipe....? Certainly, I would have thought Jim's 3.4-4k spool up can only relate to either teh map or the standard downpipe...
Any other graphs with standard downpipes for comparison??
Rishi
Still waiting on some shims!
Interesting read there Jim...
Couple of things to note though..
Engine Compression - You and Dooie have different engine builts and likely to be different engine compressions. Assuming that all else is the same the higher compression engine with the correct mapping will spool the turbo quicker every time. Higher compression will generate more effective heat and gas flow thus spooling the turbo sooner in the rev range.
Exhaust - using a 2.5" elbow will restrict your spool to a point. The Dentist did some dyno testing with differnt exhaust sizes... 3" was ideal for the 400bhp turbo they were using but going to the 3.5" exhaust caused a slower spool. Don't think the turbo was large enough to make use of the higher flow capability at the top end. It was the smaller 3" exhaust that proved the better option in this case as the slight back pressure helped spool the turbo quicker. Just shows that you need to be careful what you chose and that biggest exhaust isn't always best.
Head - Another thing to note is the head work carried out on an engine. Gas Flowing, Porting, CAM and timing will make a huge differnce to how a turbo responds and overall performs. Not going into it all here.
Coating and Lagging - Internally coating and Lagging up a manifold will help your spool too... Leave your car running for 10secs and you will burn yourself on touching the mani fold. This is heat escaping. Lag it up with Heat Wrap and you can run the car, come back and touch the laging without burning yourself. This is heat being kept in the manifold and more importantly being flowed into the turbo.
Its the gas velocity and heat that spools the turbo so by keeping as much of that heat into the exhaust manifold/turbo as possible will effectively improve your turbos response and spool.
Bored you enough already but thought i would add a few points to explain possible causes to the differences people are experiencing..
Rishi
Couple of things to note though..
Engine Compression - You and Dooie have different engine builts and likely to be different engine compressions. Assuming that all else is the same the higher compression engine with the correct mapping will spool the turbo quicker every time. Higher compression will generate more effective heat and gas flow thus spooling the turbo sooner in the rev range.
Exhaust - using a 2.5" elbow will restrict your spool to a point. The Dentist did some dyno testing with differnt exhaust sizes... 3" was ideal for the 400bhp turbo they were using but going to the 3.5" exhaust caused a slower spool. Don't think the turbo was large enough to make use of the higher flow capability at the top end. It was the smaller 3" exhaust that proved the better option in this case as the slight back pressure helped spool the turbo quicker. Just shows that you need to be careful what you chose and that biggest exhaust isn't always best.
Head - Another thing to note is the head work carried out on an engine. Gas Flowing, Porting, CAM and timing will make a huge differnce to how a turbo responds and overall performs. Not going into it all here.
Coating and Lagging - Internally coating and Lagging up a manifold will help your spool too... Leave your car running for 10secs and you will burn yourself on touching the mani fold. This is heat escaping. Lag it up with Heat Wrap and you can run the car, come back and touch the laging without burning yourself. This is heat being kept in the manifold and more importantly being flowed into the turbo.
Its the gas velocity and heat that spools the turbo so by keeping as much of that heat into the exhaust manifold/turbo as possible will effectively improve your turbos response and spool.
Bored you enough already but thought i would add a few points to explain possible causes to the differences people are experiencing..
Rishi
A
andyc
Guest
doesn't work for me, I get this:ashills said:
"andyc, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."
maybe I'm just a 3rd class citizen
Rishi
Still waiting on some shims!
andyc said:doesn't work for me, I get this:
"andyc, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."
maybe I'm just a 3rd class citizen
Read the rules... There is a reason that people cannot acess the post...
Rishi
A
andyc
Guest
are these the rules hidden in the 'new users - read me!!' thread? Has somone been banned under item 2, or is it a problem with a different rule?RishiGTiR said:
Andy
Just been looking at another log (After 3 hours of BBC world its exciting believe me!!) and I just want to clarify a couple of bits. On a long slower 5th gear run I saw this data which is probably more realistic to how the car "feels".
Above 1500rpm seems to generate around .1Bar of boost, I can see a gentle low throttle blip that take its up to .02 BAr but not much past this. Continuing to gently press the throttle at 2400rpm in 5th, the turbo starts to spool slowly and surely all the way to 1.7Bar at 3850rpm. I think this is why I was saying it so "toryquey" around town.
I'm interested to see that Radiobar has a 3" downpipe but comes on boost only marginally quicker? I don't know, information overload. I give up.
Above 1500rpm seems to generate around .1Bar of boost, I can see a gentle low throttle blip that take its up to .02 BAr but not much past this. Continuing to gently press the throttle at 2400rpm in 5th, the turbo starts to spool slowly and surely all the way to 1.7Bar at 3850rpm. I think this is why I was saying it so "toryquey" around town.
I'm interested to see that Radiobar has a 3" downpipe but comes on boost only marginally quicker? I don't know, information overload. I give up.
I'm out the country which is why BBC World or analysing old logs on my laptop has becoming an exciting past time!!
I'm just saying it how I see it, .64 A/R can only improve things. RadioBar is seeing similar. Of course it could be my TPS problem I've found which was one of the reasons I made all the logs in the first place but I doubt it.
I'm interested in getting my head round the 3" elbow vs boost surge vs turbo response. If you focus on the positive though, the turbo is generating usable boost from 2500rpm.
Can probably have a play at the weekend of every test under the sun but doubtful before that. Here is the link from When Dooie first got his setup:
http://www.gtiroc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32905&highlight=dyno
I'm reckoning it the 2.5" rather than 3" that is making the difference as my torque curve appears smoother from below 2.5K to 4.5K rather. But like I said before, I'm making assumptions that need more data.
Cheers,
Jim
I'm just saying it how I see it, .64 A/R can only improve things. RadioBar is seeing similar. Of course it could be my TPS problem I've found which was one of the reasons I made all the logs in the first place but I doubt it.
I'm interested in getting my head round the 3" elbow vs boost surge vs turbo response. If you focus on the positive though, the turbo is generating usable boost from 2500rpm.
Can probably have a play at the weekend of every test under the sun but doubtful before that. Here is the link from When Dooie first got his setup:
http://www.gtiroc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32905&highlight=dyno
I'm reckoning it the 2.5" rather than 3" that is making the difference as my torque curve appears smoother from below 2.5K to 4.5K rather. But like I said before, I'm making assumptions that need more data.
Cheers,
Jim