noriek2003
New Member
what danny is on about is this :
Complete overkill on anyones engine on here. That thing was heading for 1000bhp.
None of the problems being discussed on here are down to inherent problems with the gtirs block or head imho. If things are blowing up at 350-400bhp there are other problems elsewhere.
With a decent rad and oil cooler you shouldn't be having any issues if everything else is as it should be imho. Underdriving the water pump or fitting an electric pump, re-routing the water from the rear of the head and trying to duct air thorugh the rad is as much as i'd be doing tbh.
Complete overkill on anyones engine on here. That thing was heading for 1000bhp.
None of the problems being discussed on here are down to inherent problems with the gtirs block or head imho. If things are blowing up at 350-400bhp there are other problems elsewhere.
With a decent rad and oil cooler you shouldn't be having any issues if everything else is as it should be imho. Underdriving the water pump or fitting an electric pump, re-routing the water from the rear of the head and trying to duct air thorugh the rad is as much as i'd be doing tbh.
noriek2003
New Member
in a word......no..
you're all talking about 350-400bhp, thats feck all on one of our engines. You can do 350 easy enough on a standard engine without any issues and push for 400 if you wanted to. As said above, if forged engines are blowing up at these power figures there is an underlying problem elsewhere. Which bob highlighted himself in his build thread.
Does that thing flush? :lol:
I have to agree with noriek, surely there are other problems if your getting det?
Excuse my crude understanding of water jackets, but if you make walls thinner, isn't whatever liquid in there going to just heat up faster?
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pulsarboby
Guest
yep totally agree thats overkill on a large scale lol.
your right kieron the reason it melted pistons last time was through my own stupid fault:der: you cant expect an engine to hit 1.85 bar and work properly when the thing was only initially mapped to 1.3 so i give myself a good slapping for that:lol: i thought i was turning boost up on profec but actually had knocked the gain setting to around 90%:doh:
have done the mods with other bits and now cars mapped to handle 380 odd and boost controllers all set up properly hopefully there wont be any more probs
but
the engine that melted the 4 hks pistons and cracked the head in 12 places is still in the car but this time with just the cylinders honed and a s/h set of weisco pistons chucked in it, just whipped a replacement head off another engine and dropped the hks cams in and am in process of lashing it all back together, quick sharpish as ive a trackday at brands booked in just over a week.
i really dont know how long it will last but i only want it to last for 4 events (im asking a lot there lol) then il build another over the next few months.
when i build the new engine though i was wondering if theres any way of improving the flow on these waterways!!!
i know 380 isnt a lot of power but its really punished on track at 20-30 minute sessions around 6 times in a day and it seems that is the real killer of the engines.
on the road driving isnt a prob and the things go on and on but put it on the grippy stuff in the heat and drive it flat out for the given times and its a whole different ball game at those power levels.
do you know of any ways of improving that waterjacket kieron?
without going to extremes as in the photo.
your right kieron the reason it melted pistons last time was through my own stupid fault:der: you cant expect an engine to hit 1.85 bar and work properly when the thing was only initially mapped to 1.3 so i give myself a good slapping for that:lol: i thought i was turning boost up on profec but actually had knocked the gain setting to around 90%:doh:
have done the mods with other bits and now cars mapped to handle 380 odd and boost controllers all set up properly hopefully there wont be any more probs
but
the engine that melted the 4 hks pistons and cracked the head in 12 places is still in the car but this time with just the cylinders honed and a s/h set of weisco pistons chucked in it, just whipped a replacement head off another engine and dropped the hks cams in and am in process of lashing it all back together, quick sharpish as ive a trackday at brands booked in just over a week.
i really dont know how long it will last but i only want it to last for 4 events (im asking a lot there lol) then il build another over the next few months.
when i build the new engine though i was wondering if theres any way of improving the flow on these waterways!!!
i know 380 isnt a lot of power but its really punished on track at 20-30 minute sessions around 6 times in a day and it seems that is the real killer of the engines.
on the road driving isnt a prob and the things go on and on but put it on the grippy stuff in the heat and drive it flat out for the given times and its a whole different ball game at those power levels.
do you know of any ways of improving that waterjacket kieron?
without going to extremes as in the photo.
noriek2003
New Member
i've never really looked into it to much tbh bob, overheating isn't much of an issue on a drag car as they run for such a short period of time. I know a few people who race sr's in the states that re-route the water line out of the back of the head round to the front and into the rad as the rear outlet normally dumps hot water straight back into the circuit on the standard set up without going through the rad, its done that way as standard so that hot water gets to the heater as quick as possible, i think i mentioned that to you before when we discussed it.
For those that dont know the head has 2 seperate water circuits, one that exits from the rear, which goes to the heater matrix and the one that exits at the front and goes to the rad.
Im not sure how much success you'd have with getting anything into the water ways to grind out the casting on the head tbh, maybe a flexi head on a dremmel will get in there. Probably best to mess about with a scrap head and block and see what you can do. With the block i'd guess theres not alot you can do to the water jacket around the bores as the liners are cast in and you wont really get at it. If you havn't done it, its also a good idea to radius the edges of the casting in the block where the water pump fits as this helps with flow out of the pump
an electric water pump would be the easiest option (summit racing do a kit that comes with a blank for the old water pump), maybe add a swirl pot to the top rad hose to help get rid of any air as mentioned in the post gtir350 put up.
I take it you have binned the stat already ?
Have you ducted the rad so that air has to go through it ?
Have you tried running additives (water wetter) in the coolant system ?
i'll have a good look at my scrap head and block tomorrow morning and see what i think is possible.
For those that dont know the head has 2 seperate water circuits, one that exits from the rear, which goes to the heater matrix and the one that exits at the front and goes to the rad.
Im not sure how much success you'd have with getting anything into the water ways to grind out the casting on the head tbh, maybe a flexi head on a dremmel will get in there. Probably best to mess about with a scrap head and block and see what you can do. With the block i'd guess theres not alot you can do to the water jacket around the bores as the liners are cast in and you wont really get at it. If you havn't done it, its also a good idea to radius the edges of the casting in the block where the water pump fits as this helps with flow out of the pump
an electric water pump would be the easiest option (summit racing do a kit that comes with a blank for the old water pump), maybe add a swirl pot to the top rad hose to help get rid of any air as mentioned in the post gtir350 put up.
I take it you have binned the stat already ?
Have you ducted the rad so that air has to go through it ?
Have you tried running additives (water wetter) in the coolant system ?
i'll have a good look at my scrap head and block tomorrow morning and see what i think is possible.
red reading
Active Member
other problems on these engines are.
wrong bore size headgasket i.e too big for the piston bore
cylinder heads not being modded to suit the bore size
both of these cause hot spots and melt engine's
as has happened to mine!
i think for modding the water circuit bob just re-route the heater matrix pipes and fit a eleccy water pump kit as keiron has said.and run the car rich at the topend of the rev range to help with cylinder temps.i would also try 1 or 2 grade colder plugs on track as that can drop cylinder internal temps by 100 degrees per grade.
and finally give us a bell or pm whenever bob about that thing?!
wrong bore size headgasket i.e too big for the piston bore
cylinder heads not being modded to suit the bore size
both of these cause hot spots and melt engine's
as has happened to mine!
i think for modding the water circuit bob just re-route the heater matrix pipes and fit a eleccy water pump kit as keiron has said.and run the car rich at the topend of the rev range to help with cylinder temps.i would also try 1 or 2 grade colder plugs on track as that can drop cylinder internal temps by 100 degrees per grade.
and finally give us a bell or pm whenever bob about that thing?!
noriek2003
New Member
personally i'd say that these are problems with the people that build them not putting enough attention into the finer details ;-)red reading said:
red reading
Active Member
true my forged hiteq melted because of the above it probabley would have been fine at t28 340 bhp ish levels,thats why i am building my own......properley;-)
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pulsarboby
Guest
yep the stats gone and was running 20% waterwetter, never got round to ducting the rad though but temps on rad were down anyway but its the block & head that seemed to be getting too hot.
the idea of a swirlpot could be a good one though as it could be building up air with heat which will obviously cause a problem so will try that also.
would appreciate if you could take a look at a head to see what you make of it!
i know i cant ream out the internal passages but was merely thinking of opening the faces slightly where block mates to head, and as you say with the inner casting of the pump area as thats very rough cast.
danny....if i can i want to stay away from electric pump if i can possibly solve it by above ways and find the route cause of the prob.
i do however see what you mean with regard to the h/g being incorrect size for bore and the combustion chamber in head not being matched to bore which is something i will sort out when building my next lump.
as you say all those things will raise cylinder temps which is no good for a car constantly living above 5k rpm
thanks for the help chaps, good points there
noriek2003
New Member
matching the openings in head and block would help with flow if there were any steps to start withpulsarboby said:
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pulsarboby
Guest
at a rough guess! by how much do you think i could ream these out by???
i was thinking of around 1/2mm around the edges but i would then also need to modify the h/g slightly or it may be suscebtable to blowing if theres a step there, plus it would be a waste of time if i left it as is:lol:
i was thinking of around 1/2mm around the edges but i would then also need to modify the h/g slightly or it may be suscebtable to blowing if theres a step there, plus it would be a waste of time if i left it as is:lol:
noriek2003
New Member
i'd just check to see if they match when the 2 are together, at a guess, just opening them up for the sake of opening them up isn't going to do alot unless you opened up the whole waterway circuit to increase volume.
electric pump is still probably the easiest option once everything else is taken care of, you can control the speed of it as you want to, increasing pump speed regardless of engine revs is going to help, you can run it with the engine off etc.etc.
electric pump is still probably the easiest option once everything else is taken care of, you can control the speed of it as you want to, increasing pump speed regardless of engine revs is going to help, you can run it with the engine off etc.etc.
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pulsarboby
Guest
Mmmmm! i may just take that option then and see what happens kieron.
if it blows up again after ive done all that work (or rather machine shop) then it really is time to bail out with these cars as a serious track car, i dont think i would have the heart to go through another build as it would be a pointless waste of time and money.
if i could get the engine to last through a year on track i would be happy with that, but think i maybe asking a little too much.
it would however be quite funny if the lashup ive got in there at the moment lasts for 4 events its a mishmash of parts even down to the rings on the pistons:lol::lol:
if it blows up again after ive done all that work (or rather machine shop) then it really is time to bail out with these cars as a serious track car, i dont think i would have the heart to go through another build as it would be a pointless waste of time and money.
if i could get the engine to last through a year on track i would be happy with that, but think i maybe asking a little too much.
it would however be quite funny if the lashup ive got in there at the moment lasts for 4 events its a mishmash of parts even down to the rings on the pistons:lol::lol:
noriek2003
New Member
this is exactly where i am with mine and the gearbox, if everything i've done doesn't work out, the car gets sold off in bits.pulsarboby said:
there really is only so much you can do that is financially feasible
and its pointless flogging a dead horse :deadhorse:
will be popping out to the workshop in a mo so will have a look at that scrap engine
I dont think theres any issue with the waterways in the block or head either to be honest! I'm going to stick mine upto about 370bhp on standard internals (hopefully before next year :lol
so it'll be interesting to see what happens on track days etc.It'll probably fall to pieces :lol:
Trip
New Member
red reading
Active Member
a swirl pot will help on the track cars as well especially if the pumps are cavitating as that means the water is being boiled by the pump spinning to fast which creates steam/air which in turn will put air locks/hotspots in the cylinder head.
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pulsarboby
Guest
that 70-80 or so bhp more is the real killer markus! thats when the probs start:lol:I dont think theres any issue with the waterways in the block or head either to be honest! I'm going to stick mine upto about 370bhp on standard internals (hopefully before next year :lol
It'll probably fall to pieces :lol:
at around 300 there isnt a great prob, but thats not enough power to be competetive on the straights due to the huge transmission losses.
ive got a water swirlpot so will get an elecy pump and whoop that on and see what happens with the new build when its finished (not even started it yet)