Finding a solution to breaking gearcases on high power Rs

[ROGERGTIR]

TOP 3 TIMES FOR 0-60

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE TOP 3 TIMES ARE 4 GTIR'S 0-60, ONLY OFFICIAL TIMES PLEASE,
ALSO 4 ME THE 2 TOP GTIR'S AT J-TUNER THRASH WERE MO JAMAL AND LOUI'S, AS THEY SAY, THE BULLSH*T STOPS AT BRUNTERS

 

[deank93]

The RC car was timed in the upcoming 0-100-0 feature for Redline magazine, Redline is the sister mag to J-Tuner and they both use the same timing equipment.

So that makes the RC car the record holder.

As far as i'm aware the top three official 0-60 times are as follows:

1st RC (can't remember the owners name) - 3.2secs
2nd Mo Jamil - 3.5secs
3rd Lou Rob - 3.66secs

 

[Keira]

WPC - is a treatment that changes the surface tructure of the material making it more friction free... It also hardens the material making it a lot stronger...

i cant see it helping tbh.

WPC treatment is very similar to shot peening but the particles are much smaller. The heat produced by the speed at which the particles hit the metal actually melts the surface, it is then rapidly cooled which completes the process. It will make the metal stonger on gears, piston crowns, cranks etc.etc but i dont think it would help the tensile strength of the casing The casings are just to weak and poorly cast. They're so thin on that end. Nissan obvioulsy knew it which is why they beefed up the casings, obvioulsy it cant hurt but i dont think any form of treatment is really going to solve the problem, the whole casing needs re-inforcing and strengthening on that end. Welding has been discussed before but that brings its own problems

short of having a whole casing made up I think the way to go is along the lines of the brace si made up with the added bonus of one of my stupid cunning plans :lol: :lol:

optimism is such a wonderful thing :lol:

 

[Fast Guy]

Re: TOP 3 TIMES FOR 0-60

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE TOP 3 TIMES ARE 4 GTIR'S 0-60, ONLY OFFICIAL TIMES PLEASE,
ALSO 4 ME THE 2 TOP GTIR'S AT J-TUNER THRASH WERE MO JAMAL AND LOUI'S, AS THEY SAY, THE BULLSH*T STOPS AT BRUNTERS

It depends what you call official. Everywhere is official allegedly. Elvington, Santa Pod, Crail, Bruntingthorpe etc

If you use the search facility for 0-60 about half way down this should catch your eye

http://bb.gtiroc.com/viewtopic.php?t=26789&start=0

Only proven times have ben used. The 0-60 times that you are keen on are listed and they were all done in 1/4 mile runs slower than has been done on the strip, so although the RC car has the fastest timed 0-60, it may not be the fastest ever done. That hopefully will be proved next year sometime.

York has a 0-60 event in may (normally) get him to come to that.

Just hope he can find a gearbox that doesn't break

 

[Rishi]

WPC - is a treatment that changes the surface tructure of the material making it more friction free... It also hardens the material making it a lot stronger...

i cant see it helping tbh.

WPC treatment is very similar to shot peening but the particles are much smaller. The heat produced by the speed at which the particles hit the metal actually melts the surface, it is then rapidly cooled which completes the process. It will make the metal stonger on gears, piston crowns, cranks etc.etc but i dont think it would help the tensile strength of the casing The casings are just to weak and poorly cast. They're so thin on that end. Nissan obvioulsy knew it which is why they beefed up the casings, obvioulsy it cant hurt but i dont think any form of treatment is really going to solve the problem, the whole casing needs re-inforcing and strengthening on that end. Welding has been discussed before but that brings its own problems

short of having a whole casing made up I think the way to go is along the lines of the brace si made up with the added bonus of one of my stupid cunning plans :lol: :lol:

optimism is such a wonderful thing :lol:

I think you're right about treating the casing..

i had a long chat with Ian last night...

Having had a quick look at the recently broken box he told he what he believed to be the problem... Its pretty much what we suspected all along...

The casing is already under preload and the fact that there is far less 'give' in twin plate clutches, esp ones with no damping in the plates... When the car is lauched the input shaft is being forced through the end of the box... Being Aluminium its not hard to break...

He was telling me that his happened all the time to the Group A GTi's that he worked on back in the day... But they managed to fix this problem...

Discussed with Ian how he plans to fix the problem and the fix sounds very promissing...

Needless to say that i have arranged for Ian to work his magic on my gearbox as soon as he's ready and finallised the fix...




Rishi

 

[prnnts]

whats is mos spec

wat internals is he running and how much boost...

 

[ChrisS]

Discussed with Ian how he plans to fix the problem and the fix sounds very promissing...

Come on rishi, dont keep us in suspense, whats the plan. Some sort of bracing?

The end of the casing on mo's box was blown clean off by the shaft. It looked very weak

 

[Rishi]

Discussed with Ian how he plans to fix the problem and the fix sounds very promissing...

Come on rishi, dont keep us in suspense, whats the plan. Some sort of bracing?

The end of the casing on mo's box was blown clean off by the shaft. It looked very weak

Well the idea was to weld a thick metal curved plate all round the end of the gearbox... This will thicken and strengthen up the casing severely...

Also wants to maybe take a litte pre-load out too...

This is something that Ian @ Hiteq is working on just now... I'll be going in as soon as he's ready to have this kind of thing done to my car... Will then be put to the test when the new season starts... And if it breaks then we will look to see how we can further improve the strength...


Rishi

 

[ChrisS]

I'll be going in as soon as he's ready to have this kind of thing done to my car... Will then be put to the test when the new season starts...

Fingers crossed.

Any idea on cost?

 

[Rishi]

I'll be going in as soon as he's ready to have this kind of thing done to my car... Will then be put to the test when the new season starts...

Fingers crossed.

Any idea on cost?

Not sure but it will involve a rebuild in order to remove preload...

For me it doesn't matter as one way or another i need it done... Can't really see another solution unless you want to pay £15k for a custom casing...

Will find out cost once Ian has finallised his plans and implemented them



Rishi

 

[Keira]

Well the idea was to weld a thick metal curved plate all round the end of the gearbox... This will thicken and strengthen up the casing severely...

from chatting to pete a while ago i'm pretty sure rc tried welding their evos casing and it caused all sorts of problems, hence si's brace that doesn't require any welding direct to the casing.

 

[Rishi]

Well the idea was to weld a thick metal curved plate all round the end of the gearbox... This will thicken and strengthen up the casing severely...

from chatting to pete a while ago i'm pretty sure rc tried welding their evos casing and it caused all sorts of problems, hence si's brace that doesn't require any welding direct to the casing.

Do you know what problems were caused...?


Rishi

 

[Keira]

im pretty sure it was the heat from welding it weakened the casings and they distorted and cracked when they cooled. They'd tried it a few times i think and they all failed.

he was telling me when we were looking at info about transmission braces, i'll have to ask him again next time i speak to him.

 

[Fast Guy]

im pretty sure it was the heat from welding it weakened the casings and they distorted and cracked when they cooled. They'd tried it a few times i think and they all failed.

I can't see why it would do that. I had an alloy gearbox repaired before. The mounting points on the end of the box had been ripped in half in a crash and it took a substantial amount of welding to build it back up (about an inch in height) on the two points, once finished I never had any problems with it again. Admittedly it didn't have to take the power ours does, but you're saying the problems were with the welding before the box was back in the car. :?

 

[Keira]

i honestly cant remember carl, i know they welded reinforcement of some kind to the casing and it failed. I'll have to ask pete again. I guess the problem occurs due to the amount of welding required

The problem with welding cast ali was mentioned in the thread we had a while ago, originally my plan was to weld the cr@p out of it, i think it was jeff or si who pointed out the problems.

i'll link the thread

http://bb.gtiroc.com/viewtopic.php?t=33116&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=casing&start=0

 

[Keira]

some bits from my research collection

Manufacturing parts or making parts that will work together is all about compromises. Although it is true that helical gears contact 1 1/2 teeth making them stronger for the selected pitch, it puts thrust loads on the case (left to right) which is not what the factory case was designed for. It is much stronger in a radially (up down). Straight cut is the way you want to go to take the left/right loads off of the box.
Instead of using helical, and because we are using a better material to begin with, you can now get a beefier, stronger pitch in a straight cut gear within the same transmission case dimensions. This will take far more load than a smaller pitch helical gear, which is limited to having rather small teeth in comparison in order to be effective. Basically starting from a clean sheet of paper with a whole new concept we were able to achieve what we were looking for.

Helical gears are used for quietness, just like synchromesh transmissions. I, as many of you also probably did as well; used to sidestep the clutch back in the day. Bad idea. Not so bad when the car was stock, but very bad after we started making a bit of power. You should never sidestep, or drop the clutch if you appreciate your wallet. Now that am wiser, I know this. We would actually send shafts through the transmission casings, and if we didn’t we would totally demolish the bearings. Three transmissions in one weekend and I soon changed my driving style. They used to say I could break transmissions by looking at them. Not the best moniker to have.

The straight cut gears, on the other hand, are far better at withstanding this kind of abuse. Had we had this transmission then, I could have saved a lot of money.


unfortunately he drives a mitsubishi :roll: :lol:

 

[creedy]

Has anyone used 1st and 2nd from a PAR kit and the rest quiafe?


Another thing that you mite be able to try on the casing is "webbing" by alloy brasing ally strips to make up cross sections. by brasing them on you shouldnt get to much heat build up.

 

[zia]

anyone broken a gearbox with using twin damper type clutch plate's?

zia

 

[robinsongtir]

First of all the confusions over the fastes 0-60 times and 0-100 is easy to sort our Customers car was timed at Bruntingthrope for Jtuner/Redline magazine using Datron timing gear same as was used on monday he did 0-60 in 3.2 secs and 0-100 in 6.5 secs.
The issues with the Quaiffe gearsets and the casing is the same or very similar to the ones We have had with the RC EVO which is yes the gearbox casing is the weakpoint being aluminium and it just either cracks or just falls apart caused by preload on the shafts forcing them out the side of the casing.The only way around this is to use a gearset that uses straight cut gears and a straight cut final Drive with a roller bearing thus eliminating preload on the shafts.This would stop any damage to the gearbox casing and your problems solved,the myth of having solid engine mounts and OS giken clutches causing the failure is nonsense it jsut highlights the problems with helical cut gears more.So where do we go on from here I see the only company that I would consider could help us would be PPG in Australia they make full dogboxes and full syncro boxes with straight cut gears this is the only option I see available.

 

[ashills]

my old quaiffe had a welded end plate from japan on it
bernie said that could of been one of the problems why the gears locked to the shaft if the welding had distorted the end case throwing it out of line adding strees to moving parts etc
from what has been written straight cut box is way to go and live with the crunching gears lol