I totally agree with this, as long as you don't do extended track work with the car, then the better clamping ability of the multi piston caliper will help.EVOBAD said:
I have the Godspeed 308mm disc kit (cross drilled only) on my car, with Mintex M1144 pads, under 16" Compomotive MO's and the difference between the OE disc set up is like night and day. The brakes are far better now.
Partner those with a set of braided lines, and keep the fluid fresh and I'm sure you'll be happy with them. I'd would go with the Mintex M1155 pads though, just for their higher temp rating !
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pulsarboby
Guest
i hate to say it but i totally disagree with the above!
i had a car in a while back with 300mm discs, braided lines and standard calipers, and i could feel no difference in the stopping power at all.
when the car was broke i sold the discs etc to a local lad, and told him the truth about them making zilch difference, but he just wanted them as they looked better!
after fitting them, he agreed with me and could see no benefit in the braking at all.
the only benefit you will see with bigger discs, is the fact that they will disperse heat quicker than the smaller ones, which will see slight gains on the track, due to a longer period before brake fade will occur, they will not effect stopping power!
the thing that effects your stopping power is the calipers more than anything else, as you have twice the amount of little men pushing the pads onto the disc, 6 pots will give you triple the amount of little men
pads as previously stated will also add to braking efficiency, but still wont get the full benefit of those pads untill you have more little men pushing them and making them work harder.
but if you go to big with calipers (6 pot and above) you will then also need to uprate your master cylinder, as that wont be man enough to work the little men, and will eventually blow a seal, especially if you have braided lines fitted.
like everything with cars, you get what you pay for! and no good doing half a job as it will bite you in the ass lol
but imho really cant see the point (other than looks) of just using bigger discs on a road car!
i had a car in a while back with 300mm discs, braided lines and standard calipers, and i could feel no difference in the stopping power at all.
when the car was broke i sold the discs etc to a local lad, and told him the truth about them making zilch difference, but he just wanted them as they looked better!
after fitting them, he agreed with me and could see no benefit in the braking at all.
the only benefit you will see with bigger discs, is the fact that they will disperse heat quicker than the smaller ones, which will see slight gains on the track, due to a longer period before brake fade will occur, they will not effect stopping power!
the thing that effects your stopping power is the calipers more than anything else, as you have twice the amount of little men pushing the pads onto the disc, 6 pots will give you triple the amount of little men
pads as previously stated will also add to braking efficiency, but still wont get the full benefit of those pads untill you have more little men pushing them and making them work harder.
but if you go to big with calipers (6 pot and above) you will then also need to uprate your master cylinder, as that wont be man enough to work the little men, and will eventually blow a seal, especially if you have braided lines fitted.
like everything with cars, you get what you pay for! and no good doing half a job as it will bite you in the ass lol
but imho really cant see the point (other than looks) of just using bigger discs on a road car!
That is interesting Bob as, I felt a big difference in the stopping power with the larger discs.pulsarboby said:
The idea behind the larger disc is that you move the caliper further out from the hub. This will give a much better lever effect and so, improve stopping power, regardless of piston number. Of course, as you've touched on, they will also dissipate heat more effectively.
The idea behind the multiple pistons, is to spread the pressure put on the pad, when you apply the brakes. So, with 4 smaller pistons, you're spreading the pressure more evenly over the entire back of the pad which, in turn, will put more even pressure to the whole friction surface, on to the disc. This will use more of the pads friction surface, more effectively.
With the OE single piston caliper, you're only putting pressure on the centre of the pad so, effectively not using the whole of the pads friction surface to it's maximum.
With 6 piston calipers, you're spreading the pressure across the pad even more effectively so, the pad will again, work even better.
You shouldn't expect any more braking power with multiple piston calipers as, there won't be any. They don't apply any more effort, again, it's the distancing of the caliper from the hub centre that will give you more power.
If you're just after reducing brake fade, the component that is most to blame for this is the pad as, it's brake gases made by the pad, that get trapped between the pad surface and disc surface that cause fade.
The best way to get round this is to get high temp pads and bed them in properly. Getting the discs cross drilled will also help eliminate fade as, the cross drilling allows this gas to escape.
Grooving the disc may also help but, it won't be as effective as cross drilling them but, will be better at cleaning the pad surface, if they're glazed etc...
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Odin
Guest
I don't really see how moving the standard calliper out will make that much difference at all :? , I understand the theory but it's only got one piston and is about as much use as t1ts on a nun when it comes to braking efficiency :doh: :roll:
I've also driven Mic's car with 285 willwood kit fitted and in my opinion that's not much better than standard either :doh: :roll: , Oh and the build quality is shite :evil: .
Another thing is that drilled disc's will crack its not a matter of if they crack but when :doh: , I was told that by AP themselves ;-) , I have 304x28 grooved discs with AP four pots on mine and never suffer from fade on the road or track.
Rob
I've also driven Mic's car with 285 willwood kit fitted and in my opinion that's not much better than standard either :doh: :roll: , Oh and the build quality is shite :evil: .
Another thing is that drilled disc's will crack its not a matter of if they crack but when :doh: , I was told that by AP themselves ;-) , I have 304x28 grooved discs with AP four pots on mine and never suffer from fade on the road or track.
Rob
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pulsarboby
Guest
in theory i agree with what you just said paul, but a 4 pot caliper only needs to be half as efficient as a 2 pot! as you still have 4 pistons doing the work of two, so in effect this should half the braking effort required as these 'as you rightly pointed out' are over a wider expanse of the disc.
so still cannot see how a bigger disc alone will make any more impact on stopping the vehicle:? , but couple that bigger disc with 4 pots and there should or i should say will be a vast difference.
but good pad choice as you pointed out will make a difference, as thats the final point of contact in the two friction surfaces, but with 4 pots it will be even better still as they will be more efficient and use the pads to a far greater effect!
im sounding quite clever there, me thinks:lol: :lol:
so still cannot see how a bigger disc alone will make any more impact on stopping the vehicle:? , but couple that bigger disc with 4 pots and there should or i should say will be a vast difference.
but good pad choice as you pointed out will make a difference, as thats the final point of contact in the two friction surfaces, but with 4 pots it will be even better still as they will be more efficient and use the pads to a far greater effect!
im sounding quite clever there, me thinks:lol: :lol:
I think most of you are missing the most important component "PADS" the braking material on them will make or break what ever kit you have.Alot of you seem to be using or recommending race pads which is all well and good if you do track days as the material in "race" pads is designed to work at higher temps and on a track not only can you get them upto their working temp you can keep them there as well..................Whereas...............on the road you will be lucky if you actually get them upto the operating temperature.For example for a couple of years i use standard size 3G 10 groove discs with standard Nissan pads and for playing about on the road i couldnt fault them other than they would fade quicker than my mates 4pot 310mm kit with GreenStuff pads.I then changed the pads for Mintex 1144's and the difference was immediately noticable my lower speed braking responce was drastically reduced but they were alittle better under higher speed braking but not by much.Again we changed my mates GreenStuffs for the Wilwood "SmartPads" and what a difference, you could actually stop. The GreenStuff were dreadful.
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Odin
Guest
I replaced the disc's and pads on my old R with Pagid grooved disc and Pagid's own pads, And in my opinion they where far far better than than the useless willwood set up you can buy for peanuts at rally design.
I suppose that goes to show that you can make the standard callipers perform far better,
Rob
I suppose that goes to show that you can make the standard callipers perform far better,
Rob
Lionel
Member
spot on there mate, also after talking to Ian iv found that haveing your brakes drilled is not worth it as the drilled holes hole in the heat and gas off the pad that makes the dice`s crack and then its bin time for them so haveing the JUST groved is the best option.RishiGTiR said:
Lionel
Member
Marc just got of the phone with Ian and he said he can get 290 under 15" wheels but il need to no how much room u have left between ur wheels and the top of your dices at the momnet if you can find out that will help.
if theres between 45-50mil room then we can go for 290-295`s the price for he kits will be
AP 4 pots 995.00
Brembo 4 pots 950.00
if theres between 45-50mil room then we can go for 290-295`s the price for he kits will be
AP 4 pots 995.00
Brembo 4 pots 950.00
The number of pistons the caliper has is irrelevant when discussing brake power. Just by using 4 as opposed to 1 pot calipers, you're not producing any ore brake effort, you're just spreading the pressure over the back of the pad.Odin said:
It's rudamentary lever and fulcrum theory. The further you move the caliper out from the centre of the disc, the easier it is to slow the disc and the effort to do so is less too !
Not true, at least not on a road car or the sort of use a road car might see on the track. If the disc material used is inferior, you will suffer cracking, same as if the holes aren't drilled properly. Porsche and Mercedes would drill their discs if this was the case !Odin said:
Again, fade has much more to do with you pad material than your discs or anything else. It's the gas that the pads create in operation that cause fade. By removing this gas with cross drilling or grooving the discs but, using the correct pad material for the useage is the best way to eliminate fade !
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Er..... nope, I think most of us mentioned pads ?!
I do agree with you about the race pad materials though although, neither of the pads I mentioned are race pads. The M1155 pads are very similar to the M1144 pads, with a good constant friction coeficient throughout the temperature range, and good initial bite. They just work up to a higher temperature. This may reduce intial bite levels over the M1144 compound ever so slightly but, I don't think you'd notice it.
And yes, Greenstuff pads are terrible, I'd even go as far to say dangerous, from my experiences with them !
I do agree with you about the race pad materials though although, neither of the pads I mentioned are race pads. The M1155 pads are very similar to the M1144 pads, with a good constant friction coeficient throughout the temperature range, and good initial bite. They just work up to a higher temperature. This may reduce intial bite levels over the M1144 compound ever so slightly but, I don't think you'd notice it.
And yes, Greenstuff pads are terrible, I'd even go as far to say dangerous, from my experiences with them !
Shaun said:
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Odin
Guest
I had better bin my AP's then seeing as the standard calliper is just as good :doh: :roll: , Of cause it is because you are pushing equally from both sides of the calliper on two pads rather than just one side like the standard calliper.youngsyp said:
Just how many times have you changed the pads on the standard calliper and found it's only the piston side pads that's actually worn down, Because as I said the standard calliper is rubbish unless it's in tip top working order which I doubt very much that most are :doh: .
As I said in my previous response I understand the theory but the standard callipers are just so bad I can't see it !MAKING A LOT OF DIFFERENCE! that's all :roll: .youngsyp said:
Oh well I'll tell the AP engineer I spoke to that he's talking out of his a5se then :roll: :der: .youngsyp said:
Rob
Was he an engineer..... or just the tea boy ? :lol:Odin said:
Now don't get wound up, just because I'm disagreeing with you and this AP engineer. Again, if what he said were true.... of a road car, Porsche and Mercedes wouldn't cross drill their discs ! I'm not disputing what he said might be true of a competition car but, we're not discussing competion cars here !
And I didn't say that the OE caliper is 'better' than the AP caliper. What I said was that the caliper won't give you more braking power and that it will effect how well the pad works !
Your calipers must have been shot then too as, my pads always wear evenly, if the sliding mechanism isn't seized, they always would ?!
And finally, even with the OE caliper, you're still putting equal pressure on each pad, just not as evenly spread as you would with multiple piston calipers.
So there !! :lol:
This is a bit of a stupid argument. Have you driven a gtir fitted with 4 (or more) pot callipers?
I can tell you from my own personal experience that the standard callipers are a pile of shite! Mine were working the best they could (new seals, sliding mechanism was greased and functioning correctly), however they are not a patch on the wilwood 4 pot's I fitted, and the disc size increase wasn’t anything to shout about, so it has to be the calliper that was making the stopping power go from ****-poor to reassuringly solid.
Has anyone got a photo of a 4 pot along side the standard datsun loner pot? That in itself gives you an idea of why the multi-pot callipers might just be a little bit better than the oe Nissan ones which iirc were sourced from some Nissan truck somewhere up the line, and not specifically designed for the gtir and its quite brisk pace.
The standard discs and callipers on a gtir are renowned to be total crap, stop kidding yourself that "the calliper won't give you more braking power" as it will, and has already been mentioned further back in the thread. Surely the alloy billet 4's will dissipate heat allot more efficiently than the old cast oe ones too?
My thoughts
Tom
I can tell you from my own personal experience that the standard callipers are a pile of shite! Mine were working the best they could (new seals, sliding mechanism was greased and functioning correctly), however they are not a patch on the wilwood 4 pot's I fitted, and the disc size increase wasn’t anything to shout about, so it has to be the calliper that was making the stopping power go from ****-poor to reassuringly solid.
Has anyone got a photo of a 4 pot along side the standard datsun loner pot? That in itself gives you an idea of why the multi-pot callipers might just be a little bit better than the oe Nissan ones which iirc were sourced from some Nissan truck somewhere up the line, and not specifically designed for the gtir and its quite brisk pace.
The standard discs and callipers on a gtir are renowned to be total crap, stop kidding yourself that "the calliper won't give you more braking power" as it will, and has already been mentioned further back in the thread. Surely the alloy billet 4's will dissipate heat allot more efficiently than the old cast oe ones too?
My thoughts
Tom
If it's a stupid arguement, why are you joining in ?tomble said:
And it's clear you did'nt read any of my posts. I didn't say that 4 pot brakes wouldn't be better than the OE set up did I ?!
What I said is that 4 pot calipers will not give you any more braking power than the OE calipers. Once again, as I've said at least twice before, 4 pot calipers just help the pads work more effectively so, they make the brakes more efficient. You're just gaining better pressure distribution on the pad.
I will however conceed that the 4 pot calipers may be stiffer and less prone to flex than the OE calipers. This will increase braking power. However, this will only apply to the well designed and made calipers like Rob's AP's etc...
And again, by your own admission, your discs are larger in diameter, and you choose to ignore the effect that may have !
I'd be more than happy for you to come and drive my car and see just how good the OE calipers, in conjunction with decent pads, larger discs and braided lines can be. As I said in my first post, they're more than man enough for road use.
And no, I haven't driven a GTiR with 4 pot brakes but, I did own an Celica St205 GT Four with 31mm front discs with 4 pot calipers and 300mm rear discs with 2 pot calipers so, do have some experience of how good road car brakes can be !
Finally, alloy calipers will also conduct heat quicker than iron ones so, you'd better hope they dissipate it better too ! ;-)