Wheel Spacers for improved handling??
- Thread starter olliecast
- Start date
red reading
Active Member
has this man flushed his break's with new fluid?as the backs might not be working properley. not that it would make the rear's lift off the ground but it would feel like they were!
Back to topic guys, ,
im not going to rant on about how much it it improves cornering speed, because it doesn't really, ,
However widening the track of the vehicle will improve the hanling, , this is and area most people generally get confused over, , (not drivers)
Making these changes (spacing wheels) aids the suspensions geometery by alot, (think if you put your top mounts out 1 degree, even thats noticable, new tyres permitted), ,
but by no means will the car be able to go round corners at double speed, but the general "handling" of the car will be improved when driven flat-out!!
Widening the track on a vehicle (especially and drift cars with over 60mm+ overall no being too un-common,) when and if you do get it side ways the "handling" will be eaiser and more controlled, mainly due to less body roll in some circumstances and the wider track does aid in vehicle body and suspension stability. Mind! doing this to extremitys will see wheel bearings go pop often!
Sounded like some dumb ass brainless ideas were getting thrown about so, i just thought i'd share that with you,
ps lift off over steer lmao
next you'll be shift locking lol
im not going to rant on about how much it it improves cornering speed, because it doesn't really, ,
However widening the track of the vehicle will improve the hanling, , this is and area most people generally get confused over, , (not drivers)
Making these changes (spacing wheels) aids the suspensions geometery by alot, (think if you put your top mounts out 1 degree, even thats noticable, new tyres permitted), ,
but by no means will the car be able to go round corners at double speed, but the general "handling" of the car will be improved when driven flat-out!!
Widening the track on a vehicle (especially and drift cars with over 60mm+ overall no being too un-common,) when and if you do get it side ways the "handling" will be eaiser and more controlled, mainly due to less body roll in some circumstances and the wider track does aid in vehicle body and suspension stability. Mind! doing this to extremitys will see wheel bearings go pop often!
Sounded like some dumb ass brainless ideas were getting thrown about so, i just thought i'd share that with you,
ps lift off over steer lmao
next you'll be shift locking lol
P
pulsarboby
Guest
ok heres my bit for what its worth lol
ive been messing with various size spacers for quite a while now and trying out different combos on front and rear.
now these are facts but i do need to point out (as i said to ollie) that they will differ from driver to driver and driving styles, and by that i mean whether you are an aggressive driver or a smooth flowing driver.
i found contrary to what should be correct! that by increasing the rear spacer to double the width on the front that this more or less got rid of understeer. now thats with running a 0 camber setting, but this 'as previously stated' will depend on the type of driving you are doing.....if its a sprint or rally type day or short tight circuit then this setting will be no good.
i recently proved with my new car at cadwell how much difference it makes with the rear spacers as i never had any fitted to rears (never had time to sort out the height / rubbing issue).
the difference in handling was immediately noticable over my old car, the understeer with total of 30mm spacers fitted to front only was immense (ask pulsarpaul lol) now when i get the rear height issue sorted and the 65mm wider track at rear back im once again confident that this will get rid of that horrible understeer.
its an easy thing to try out yourself on a track (you cant really do it on a road) just experiment with them untill you find the right size spacers.
one thing is certain though (as above) it will reduce the life of wheel bearings, but at £30 odd a corner for new ones thats no big crime or worry.
ive been messing with various size spacers for quite a while now and trying out different combos on front and rear.
now these are facts but i do need to point out (as i said to ollie) that they will differ from driver to driver and driving styles, and by that i mean whether you are an aggressive driver or a smooth flowing driver.
i found contrary to what should be correct! that by increasing the rear spacer to double the width on the front that this more or less got rid of understeer. now thats with running a 0 camber setting, but this 'as previously stated' will depend on the type of driving you are doing.....if its a sprint or rally type day or short tight circuit then this setting will be no good.
i recently proved with my new car at cadwell how much difference it makes with the rear spacers as i never had any fitted to rears (never had time to sort out the height / rubbing issue).
the difference in handling was immediately noticable over my old car, the understeer with total of 30mm spacers fitted to front only was immense (ask pulsarpaul lol) now when i get the rear height issue sorted and the 65mm wider track at rear back im once again confident that this will get rid of that horrible understeer.
its an easy thing to try out yourself on a track (you cant really do it on a road) just experiment with them untill you find the right size spacers.
one thing is certain though (as above) it will reduce the life of wheel bearings, but at £30 odd a corner for new ones thats no big crime or worry.
Ah ha! So if you want to dial-out the understeer (or create oversteer) you'd want to widen the track on the back (to give less body roll), but leave the front as-is (so that it can roll and bite into the corner)? Doing it at the front won't really help you on the road... but might be useful on the track (where there aren't things like roundabouts to contend with)?
This is based on the research I did on the ARB set-up - mainly referenced back to Whiteline. It's why their rear ARB is more stiff, and their front one is more flexible.
EDIT: Too slow, but it seems my theory is in keeping with Boby's experience.... or not. Maybe I have that the wrong way around - it would help on the track, but not on the road?
This is based on the research I did on the ARB set-up - mainly referenced back to Whiteline. It's why their rear ARB is more stiff, and their front one is more flexible.
EDIT: Too slow, but it seems my theory is in keeping with Boby's experience.... or not. Maybe I have that the wrong way around - it would help on the track, but not on the road?
Last edited:
P
pulsarboby
Guest
could be, im far from anywhere near an expert on suspension setups (jims the daddy for that) but because of my lack of knowledge ive taken the cheating way out:lol: and i dont care whether its right or wrong tbh all i know is that it suits me sir.
sometimes you just have to throw the rule book away and try stuff out for yourselves and persevere untill you get it right.
theres far too many equasions to be taken into consideration to say that one particular type of setting is correct for everybody, and thats why i think having your car professionally setup is a waste of money.
the car ive now got had been setup at a motorsport place at a cost of £380 yet i thought the handling was crap compared to my old car.
so it really is horses for courses
sometimes you just have to throw the rule book away and try stuff out for yourselves and persevere untill you get it right.
theres far too many equasions to be taken into consideration to say that one particular type of setting is correct for everybody, and thats why i think having your car professionally setup is a waste of money.
the car ive now got had been setup at a motorsport place at a cost of £380 yet i thought the handling was crap compared to my old car.
so it really is horses for courses
I couldn't agree more - everyone needs something slightly different.
I've got no need to get my car stiff for a track, but would love to have the confidence that I won't understeer into corners (and bend my wishbone again). The simple version seems to be that you can do this be stiffening the back up (so that it slides the tyres rather than rolling to keep the best grip) or by softening the front (so the car always puts lots of contact on the ground)... for me it's about roundabouts and Welsh mountain roads... and not hitting things when I drive them.
I've got no need to get my car stiff for a track, but would love to have the confidence that I won't understeer into corners (and bend my wishbone again). The simple version seems to be that you can do this be stiffening the back up (so that it slides the tyres rather than rolling to keep the best grip) or by softening the front (so the car always puts lots of contact on the ground)... for me it's about roundabouts and Welsh mountain roads... and not hitting things when I drive them.
P
pulsarboby
Guest
stop looking at the sheep in the fields then:lol::lol:
no seriously i guess what your saying is kind of correct, just try out the spacer theory in an empty carpark with an imaginary roundabout. at least it wont cost you your suspension if it all goes tits up lol
Bob is right on this one at many levels.
The first is the suspension mathematicians seem to argue at length on this one as the effect of widening the track effects other parts of the geometry and has a different impact at different times.
Bobby has tried it one way and then the other and concluded that adding extra track at the back of the car compared to the front has improved things.
In short I'd agree with Bob's findings but as the man himself says, it might not work for you depending on how you drive.
Increasing rear track width, overall it will improve rear stability, good for accelaration and braking but bad for turn in.
It will also increase rear roll resistance and throw more weight to the front, a bit like an ARB. Less rear grip.
Before I packed my bags to go to eastern climes I was looking at using spacers as a tuning tool.
My starting point would have been to match the rear track to the front track as with modern EVO's and Scoobies. This would mean adding 10 or 12mm spacers to the rear on our cars depending on what you can get.
@Ollie, you are safer with a hubcentric spacer than a load of universal small ones.
@Andy: I'm convinced Tony Bardy runs a rear spacer from your photos but you've seen his car more often then me.
Rear
Front
The first is the suspension mathematicians seem to argue at length on this one as the effect of widening the track effects other parts of the geometry and has a different impact at different times.
Bobby has tried it one way and then the other and concluded that adding extra track at the back of the car compared to the front has improved things.
In short I'd agree with Bob's findings but as the man himself says, it might not work for you depending on how you drive.
Increasing rear track width, overall it will improve rear stability, good for accelaration and braking but bad for turn in.
It will also increase rear roll resistance and throw more weight to the front, a bit like an ARB. Less rear grip.
Before I packed my bags to go to eastern climes I was looking at using spacers as a tuning tool.
My starting point would have been to match the rear track to the front track as with modern EVO's and Scoobies. This would mean adding 10 or 12mm spacers to the rear on our cars depending on what you can get.
@Ollie, you are safer with a hubcentric spacer than a load of universal small ones.
@Andy: I'm convinced Tony Bardy runs a rear spacer from your photos but you've seen his car more often then me.
Rear
Front
Last edited:
olliecast
Active Member
Afternoon all,
I`ve added the 20mm spacers to the rear, and it seems to have definately helped. I`m now getting all my alignment correct then i`ll feedback settings etc.
my car seems to like 225mm on the front and 237ish on the back. handles alot better like this to before where it was lowered so it "looked" good.
Will post up that alignment later jim,
Cheers,
ollie
I`ve added the 20mm spacers to the rear, and it seems to have definately helped. I`m now getting all my alignment correct then i`ll feedback settings etc.
my car seems to like 225mm on the front and 237ish on the back. handles alot better like this to before where it was lowered so it "looked" good.
Will post up that alignment later jim,
Cheers,
ollie
Ollie, I'm gueesing you mean 325 and 337, about a 12mm difference. Did you set this before or after the spacer was added. Also, did you add 20mm per side or 10mm per side? the post isn't clear.. or its just getting late for me.
He does :thumb:
However I took that idea and applied it to my car, but I found it made no actual improvement to the cars turn in or handling characteristics.
I notice that Time Attack cars increase their overall track width and I can totally understand that action, coupled with much wider tyres (285-295mm) then that would offer much better traction/grip.
Your previous comment about increasing rear track width: will improve rear stability, aid acceleration and braking - but bad for turn in, could apply to me when it comes to driving on track;
But as I mentioned, I noticed no improvement to handling or understeer levels with spacers.
Also the comments of "it depends on peoples driving styles", I feel that statement almost is a cover to say that “I'm not 100% convinced so I'll make an impartial statement and it can be taken however you want” (no offence to anyone)
I do believe that in different environments it could aid driving stability, but reducing understeer I’m not convinced.
I’m always willing to test further to add evidence that spacers will help reduce understeer, but there are many other areas such as castor, camber, tires and dampener settings that can achieve conclusive reductions in understeer. :thumb:
It was more to do with the way you have your dampers say compared to mine. Both right for us both but completely different at the same time.
Also, I've not tried it on an R yet to comment objectively. I see it as an extra tuning tool like dropping the rear height 10mm but without all the toe and camber changes.
What sized spacers did you try Andy?
My comment was a generalisation to all, not specifically you - should have been clearer
The largest I used was 15mm spacers, but with 225mm and even 205mm the tires were catching on the arches when cornering at speed.
P
pulsarboby
Guest
My comment was a generalisation to all, not specifically you - should have been clearer
The largest I used was 15mm spacers, but with 225mm and even 205mm the tires were catching on the arches when cornering at speed.
yes thats the main problem, means you either need to raise rear suspension or do as im doing and fit wide arch kit to compensate for wider track
but long as your happy with your setup andy their seems little point really!
as i said earlier 'horses for courses'
Very true Bob!
I just need to reduce my tyre profile around 5mm and that should help, as I've already raised the rear by another 10mm
...any wide arch kits going spare :lol:
P
pulsarboby
Guest
im currently awaiting a set to arrive (if they ever do:roll
if they fit ok then il pass on details to you, i can get fronts aswell if needed but once again i need to check the fit.
im currently awaiting a set to arrive (if they ever do:roll
if they fit ok then il pass on details to you, i can get fronts aswell if needed but once again i need to check the fit.
Yeah do that
Cheers Bob
Andy, I do like your yoko's so I'm interested to know the detail of how you got there. Big sticky tyres generally win over fancy suspension and small slippy ones ;-)
I'm gussing the spacers were a function of what was needed to stop the things rubbing... too much :-D Did you fit the spacers before or after I last saw the car.
Just to get it clear in my mind, no spacers you got rubbing on the inside front and I don't think the back fit without spacers?. you fitted the 15mm's to the front and got rubbing on the outside? Dropped it back to 13mm? At the back, similar story but dropped it to 5mm?
RS2's different tyre profile similar issue. What do you reckon are the smallest front spacers you need and the largest rear spacers you can get away with on both the 205's and 225's you fitted?