Suspension, handling info not RNN14 Dedicated but really nice to read!

[MarkTurbo]

I have quotes from Ohlins, KW and Intrax

I was beginning to think a quote from Intrax was a mythical beast like a unicorn or something rarely seen by man :lol:

I've e-mailed them a couple times in the past and had nothing back. I spoke to one of their guys this year at the Autosport show too and despite taking my details to send me all the specs & prices nothing appeared, makes me wonder what their aftersales service would be like if they can't even send a quick e-mail :?

What options did Ohlins have out of interest?

 

[Makaveli_se7en]

I think they are worth 4 x the price

I would have to agree, my personal preference at the moment is to go with the Ohlins.

The only company that were completely not interested in custom work were Nitron,

 

[nickr]

OK I got the Ackerman wrong but steering is quick and shorter like a quicker rack. I do feel a bit of excessive toe change in a straight line. Cornering its fine and I prefer it. however I hope the long shank ball joint cures the toe movement. I'd like to run quite a bit lower.

I'm basically trying to get the lower arm back into the neg camber gain area of suspension movement whole being low. I've had to run a lot of static camber to counter the positive camber gain on roll
And trying to get more front roll resistance

The gtir is my toy where I experiment and try things to help me apply to my other cars I race

 

[red reading]

OK I got the Ackerman wrong but steering is quick and shorter like a quicker rack. I do feel a bit of excessive toe change in a straight line. Cornering its fine and I prefer it. however I hope the long shank ball joint cures the toe movement. I'd like to run quite a bit lower.

I'm basically trying to get the lower arm back into the neg camber gain area of suspension movement whole being low. I've had to run a lot of static camber to counter the positive camber gain on roll
And trying to get more front roll resistance

The gtir is my toy where I experiment and try things to help me apply to my other cars I race

just out of interest what do you do regarding roll bars?, I don't run one on the front and run the whiteline at its stiffest at the rear. I will be doing the bump steer setup you have as this interests me on the feeling on the front of the car but running the amount of caster I do it may not work .

 

[nickr]

I left the front bar on as I wanted the roll resistance and faster weight transfer. Not ideal due to it adding understeer but it helps the front tire to not roll over
yeah I run my rear bar full stiff as well. My alignment 3.5 degs caster 2.7 neg camber .05 toe out. In front and rear is 1.5 camber 0 toe. I'd like to run more caster but that would require cutting the suspension tower.
http://i58.tinypic.com/5y507k.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/j9t2ed.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/t83g4y.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2vw8e80.jpg
I'm experimenting with dual rate in the back there's about 5mm of travel on the softer rate about 3kg when combined

I want full droop travel as I pick up the inside wheel and a slightly softer rate to aid traction when that corner comes down. It seems to help with traction out of corners so far. Once that helper spring collapses its full rate of 11kg in the rear.

I may go to a softer helper 3kg spring where its fully collapsed all the time so I dont get the dual rate effect but it seems OK so far. There is so little travel in the 4kg spring that its full collapsed on any sort of roll

 

[nickr]

I use the a32 maxima from here Anti Roll Center tie rod kits
And the ball joint I ordered from here
Roll Center Correction Kit Sentra
Just the ball joint not the set. Its a 38.2 mm bearing

If it doesn't work I can go back to stock. Just thought id give it a try

 

[red reading]

Very similar to my setup, I run 2 deg neg camber on the front and .5 toe in to aid with stability at speed (fast track work) caster is the same as it too is the most I can get till I try my next idea which may gain another .5, you have got me wondering on the helper springs now as well.

 

[KieranEG6]

Thing is if you only have say 500-800 to spend which is what most do, or even less. What do we buy. As far as I have read pretty much all the lowering springs that are still in production for GtiRs are too low sacrificing travel or just junk. Most shock setups you can buy if you can find any still in production need suited springs which are not really in production. Or custom piecing together with Santra parts etc. Unless I am failing internet and not looking in the right places.

I have been searching for affordable solutions, like the fresh struts, Koni inserts, ground control coils and top mounts setup suggested but am struggling to find suppliers. Or at prices within budget to piece it together. If someone wants to enlighten us with cheaper more local sources to find such parts in the Uk then great. Or even take it on to build said kits and Resale, I am sure there might be sufficient interest.

So far what I have gathered is there are 4 options.
1. Buy used old shocks/springs setup. Hope they are still in good cond and hope you can find some with whiteline springs. £300-400
2. Buy some BCs 5/4kg or 6/5kg. Get brand new complete units. Sacrifice travel, not amazing damping, but still ability to adjust and find a suitable setup. £600-700
3. Go down the custom shock inserts, ground control combination. Covers most areas well as long as you set it up well but you have to source all parts and build yourself. £1200-1700
4. Bespoke Professional gear. Ohlins, Proflex etc. Basically Good shit as long as you know what you want and how to set it up. £2000-2500 used £3000-5000 new.

But then on top there is the factor of every other part of your suspension and how serious the car is.

Personally myself if spending amounts past option 2 I would rather be putting the money into a base car with far more potential than the GtiR chassis. I know there are a good few die hard GtiR guys on here, But I am not so much a fan of spending all of my money trying to make a car something its not. They do plenty of things well but high speed handling and stability will always be a struggle. I love the car just didn't buy it to be an all out weapon of pace. Just something reasonably fast, affordable and full of character.

 

[keastygtir]

Thing is if you only have say 500-800 to spend which is what most do, or even less. What do we buy. As far as I have read pretty much all the lowering springs that are still in production for GtiRs are too low sacrificing travel or just junk. Most shock setups you can buy if you can find any still in production need suited springs which are not really in production. Or custom piecing together with Santra parts etc. Unless I am failing internet and not looking in the right places.

I have been searching for affordable solutions, like the fresh struts, Koni inserts, ground control coils and top mounts setup suggested but am struggling to find suppliers. Or at prices within budget to piece it together. If someone wants to enlighten us with cheaper more local sources to find such parts in the Uk then great. Or even take it on to build said kits and Resale, I am sure there might be sufficient interest.

So far what I have gathered is there are 4 options.
1. Buy used old shocks/springs setup. Hope they are still in good cond and hope you can find some with whiteline springs. £300-400
2. Buy some BCs 5/4kg or 6/5kg. Get brand new complete units. Sacrifice travel, not amazing damping, but still ability to adjust and find a suitable setup. £600-700
3. Go down the custom shock inserts, ground control combination. Covers most areas well as long as you set it up well but you have to source all parts and build yourself. £1200-1700
4. Bespoke Professional gear. Ohlins, Proflex etc. Basically Good shit as long as you know what you want and how to set it up. £2000-2500 used £3000-5000 new.

But then on top there is the factor of every other part of your suspension and how serious the car is.

Personally myself if spending amounts past option 2 I would rather be putting the money into a base car with far more potential than the GtiR chassis. I know there are a good few die hard GtiR guys on here, But I am not so much a fan of spending all of my money trying to make a car something its not. They do plenty of things well but high speed handling and stability will always be a struggle. I love the car just didn't buy it to be an all out weapon of pace. Just something reasonably fast, affordable and full of character.

This was what I ended up concluding from the situation myself. I went with the coilovers

 

[shroom]

Thing is if you only have say 500-800 to spend which is what most do, or even less. What do we buy. As far as I have read pretty much all the lowering springs that are still in production for GtiRs are too low sacrificing travel or just junk. Most shock setups you can buy if you can find any still in production need suited springs which are not really in production. Or custom piecing together with Santra parts etc. Unless I am failing internet and not looking in the right places.

I have been searching for affordable solutions, like the fresh struts, Koni inserts, ground control coils and top mounts setup suggested but am struggling to find suppliers. Or at prices within budget to piece it together. If someone wants to enlighten us with cheaper more local sources to find such parts in the Uk then great. Or even take it on to build said kits and Resale, I am sure there might be sufficient interest.

So far what I have gathered is there are 4 options.
1. Buy used old shocks/springs setup. Hope they are still in good cond and hope you can find some with whiteline springs. £300-400
2. Buy some BCs 5/4kg or 6/5kg. Get brand new complete units. Sacrifice travel, not amazing damping, but still ability to adjust and find a suitable setup. £600-700
3. Go down the custom shock inserts, ground control combination. Covers most areas well as long as you set it up well but you have to source all parts and build yourself. £1200-1700
4. Bespoke Professional gear. Ohlins, Proflex etc. Basically Good shit as long as you know what you want and how to set it up. £2000-2500 used £3000-5000 new.

But then on top there is the factor of every other part of your suspension and how serious the car is.

Personally myself if spending amounts past option 2 I would rather be putting the money into a base car with far more potential than the GtiR chassis. I know there are a good few die hard GtiR guys on here, But I am not so much a fan of spending all of my money trying to make a car something its not. They do plenty of things well but high speed handling and stability will always be a struggle. I love the car just didn't buy it to be an all out weapon of pace. Just something reasonably fast, affordable and full of character.

Just buy an Evo fuck the R off LOL

 

[KieranEG6]

Just buy an Evo fuck the R off LOL

Haha. I have considered this so many times. But I like the R enough to keep it and don't like an Evo enough to be able to afford a decent one. Plus its hard to get the same amount character of an R with an Evo.

 

[Makaveli_se7en]

I was beginning to think a quote from Intrax was a mythical beast like a unicorn or something rarely seen by man :lol:

I've e-mailed them a couple times in the past and had nothing back. I spoke to one of their guys this year at the Autosport show too and despite taking my details to send me all the specs & prices nothing appeared, makes me wonder what their aftersales service would be like if they can't even send a quick e-mail :?

What options did Ohlins have out of interest?

Try finding some one that speaks Dutch

I will have to dig out the quote from Ohlins, but it was custom DFV's and was circa £3k.

Edit: Can't find the flippin' quote but fairly sure it was through BG Motorsport (think that was the name, I remember they were based next to Silverstone)

 

[nickr]

If ur just driving round town the BC racing r fine

If you care about how it handles but don't want to spend the money and dont mind the less comfortable ride use an even spring setup. 6 front and rear or if u learn how to drive properly use more rate in the rear.

The biggest help to making the pulsar turn is actually the nismo 2 way diff combined with a big rear bar and more spring in the rear with lots of neg camber in front. This is the secret sauce

 

[MarkTurbo]

I will have to dig out the quote from Ohlins, but it was custom DFV's and was circa £3k.

Edit: Can't find the flippin' quote but fairly sure it was through BG Motorsport (think that was the name, I remember they were based next to Silverstone)

Sounds about right as the Dfv's for an Evo are just over 2k and they would have to be custom made.

Intrax started at 2 thousand odd euros for the basic kit upto 7500 euros for the 4 ways with all the extra options.

 

[campbellju]

So I see Ackerman like this http://i.imgur.com/rEKtKu1.jpg

I now have my tie rod end mounted like this http://www.b15u.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41463&d=1357751837

That slight change in angle of the centre point of the tie rod end

Maybe I've got it wrong but I'll have a long shank ball joint installed soon to match that picture

I see where you're going with this but I would expect on our cars it's not a big deal, as you say it's a slight change. The first photo says Max drift (in Japanese) in the bottom right where they love to add lots of additional lock and then have to mess around with the ackermann angle to correct the steering at full lock etc. If you're running any toe out on the front (which looking at your style of racing I'd expect you are) you are already messing around with you Akermann angle. You'll find you automatically compensate with your steering for toe or Ackermann to point the car where you want it to go.

 

[campbellju]

I use the a32 maxima from here Anti Roll Center tie rod kits
And the ball joint I ordered from here
Roll Center Correction Kit Sentra
Just the ball joint not the set. Its a 38.2 mm bearing

If it doesn't work I can go back to stock. Just thought id give it a try

It's always worth giving stuff a try. First one is a rose jointed track rod end which works great on our cars. Whether you stick it on top or below the mount depends on your bump steer. Measure your bump steer and put it where you need it.

The second one we looked at in the past as well as we really wanted to run lower. We were going to fabricate our own extension to the ball joint. Problem is you can raise the joint 20mm but you've dropped the car 40mm so you still can't compensate enough. It could be made to work but ultimately we found running lower also got rid of the suspension travel so you have to fit stiffer springs and you get into ever deteriorating compromises.

You style of racing is quite specific so do have a go as it might be what you need.

 

[nickr]

Yah I've got custom housings that mount my short strut fairly low and the GC top hat mounts above the susp tower. I've got about 1.5 inch more travel than the standard coilover setup for a total of 2.5 bump travel so I can drop it another half inch or so without sacrificing too much bump travel

 

[campbellju]

I'm experimenting with dual rate in the back there's about 5mm of travel on the softer rate about 3kg when combined

I want full droop travel as I pick up the inside wheel and a slightly softer rate to aid traction when that corner comes down. It seems to help with traction out of corners so far. Once that helper spring collapses its full rate of 11kg in the rear.

I may go to a softer helper 3kg spring where its fully collapsed all the time so I dont get the dual rate effect but it seems OK so far. There is so little travel in the 4kg spring that its full collapsed on any sort of roll

In case of confusion we call them tender springs over here though its clear we're talking about a dual rate setup. Helper springs here mean something that keeps the spring in place at full extension I'm confused though as 5mm of travel sounds like a helper rather than a tender spring.

The NME cars used tender springs to manage the issues of ride and roll. I haven't tried it myself but its on my list of ideas. Having said that I'd expect you'd want to use a softer tender on the front to help turn in as the softer back will induce corner entry understeer. The NME car ran a 10kg main and 6kg tender front with a 6kg main and 5kg tender rear. Hopefully food for thought with your testing

 

[nickr]

As I dont compete in rally the softer rear setup for the nme is probably because of the rear bias on their centre diff. I want lots of rotation to the point of throttle lift oversteer that is nearly snap oversteer. I've got a rough calculation of 2.57hz spring freq in front and about 3.46hz in the rear optimized for 50mph Its what I prefer not for everyone. I trail brake heavily to get the car to rotate so I'm not too concerned by turn in understeer caused by the softer tender spring in the rear as the rear isn't loaded anyways when I initiate turn in . once that initial turn in happens that helper is fully collapsed. But in terms of steady state long corners I can see initial understeer possibly occurring but in steady state I've got 5mm of tender travel before its out of the picture and I'm on the 11kg spring. Anyways I'll know in a few weeks the longer ball joint is going in and I'll see how it goes.


This is what I compete in What is Autocross?: What is Autocross? - YouTube

 

[bracpan]

TEIN UK LIMITED | COILOVER KIT & SPRING KIT SEARCH SEARCH ?NISSAN

I started to look for more info for the chap who bought my car but if you look at the link above Tein UK dont seem to no much at all for the Pulsar any more?
I used to deal with a chap in Tein ( very helpful) called Chris and even back then Tein UK could not get me anything but the Super Street kit, but they did offer a revalving on my shocks if needed,,,but the rates I got to were close to the limit of the shocks but did not need upgrading. I also spoke to Proflex and although very expensive and the top end of the market the guy there was very helpful and gave some great advice...shame I could not afford to go down that route as £1500 a corner a bit steep !! probaly even higher now?

As far as whiteline goes please look below...I used nearly every one of these parts over the years.

http://www.whiteline.com.au/do_segu...model_final=PULSAR+N14+GTIR&vehicle=1991-1996

http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/RH03_00_N14GTiR_a.jpg

http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/RH03_00_N14GTiR_b.jpg

http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/RH03_00_N14GTiR_c.jpg

http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/RH03_00_N14GTiR_d.jpg

The first is all the stuff Whitline still do and is still available,,,

The next 4 are all the info on how they set up a Pulsar and its a very good place to go/start with a road setting. I used these settings to start then altererd things as I uprated the car, suspension and the tyres...tyres are still very important as they are the only contact with the road,,,so cheap crap tyres will never overcome even the best suspension. Plus I would only go for 15in or 16in wheels max. bigger do/can work but its only extra complecation.

Jon who rallies a Pulsar would be the best guy to talk to to see if he has experienced any bump steer( I have never experienced it with a Pulsar) ....I used to run a car years ago with bad bump steer and if you got it you will know all about it!! So its one thing about the Pulsar I would not worry about..plus using any rose joints on a road car is right pain as they wear so quick.. unless you pay for the very best and protect them but they will still wear quicker than a trackrod end.

Of course if you have the money you can have any thing made for the car including top end coilovers but is it really worth it for a 25 year old car ? I realised when I first started to race the Pulsar on Sprints and Hill Climbs the car had problems keeping up with the Scoobies and Evo's on the Sprints events due to them running on wide fast open tracks, but on the tight, and sometimes bumpy Hill Climb tracks it could mix it with the best...so I set the Pulsar up more for Hill Climbs than road and track,,,,it was not nice to drive on the road in the end. I also dont mind a slight understeering car as it what I am used to, and with little room for error on the hills its usually safer.

So I would imagine in the end Red Readings car and mine where quit differntly set up? But I believe we both started with the Whiteline settings as a guide and took it from there?

I also had very stiff cage I fitted into my car...technically it was bolted but it was in only 2 main parts and the difference in the car before and after was very very noticable and much stronger than any bought bolt in cage. But again a pain for a road car especially with full harness belts, and race seat, ok out in the country but a nightmare in towns as you dont have the freedom to turn in your seat to see at junctions.

One car I am very interested in seeing finished is Stu's Pulsar as he is making his own, panels, main chassis, cage, subframes and suspension arms etc all with rose joints and is doing a cracking job. His Pulsar will then run in the Libre class on the hills which is where my next car will compete so cant wait to see 2 totaly different approuches to cracking the same nut...but that whats makes building and racing cars so much fun..all so different but some times only fractions of a second away on times. Dispite my size im going for very light and small car this time and with full adjustable wishbone suspension but it will still have a Turbo ;o)

Hope some of this helps ?