Crank angle sensor and Power FC

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
To cut a short story long, I've been struggling on and off for about a year now in getting my PowerFC to work on the car. It used to work but would idle badly and at 2000rpm it would have a fuel cut. Switch back to the standard ECU and it would work fine with no fault codes. The only funny was the car ran rich above 5000rpm at a recent RR day and could be a symptom?

After much scratching off heads I took it to RC developments who where very helpful in that they confirmed the correct operation of the ECU in another car ruled out a few queries in my mind and advised me to have a go myself as it could take them up to 10 hours to solve which I thought was fair. I was also told that the Power FC doesn't have fault codes, if it finds something like an AFM problem, it just shutsdown. I experimented with that and they're right.

Being and Electrical Engineer I fanicied having a go and have since ripped out all the dash re-newing earths, continuity checked all the wires, checked the earths and methodically checked everything using a multimeter. I can even tell you my capacitor in the resistor block is 2.02uF for what its worth. On a positive note, my sidelights don't come on anymore when I hit the brake :roll: :lol:

I believe the crank angle sensor is at fault with the PowerFC and I'm going to ask Wayne nicely about borrowing his but unless his is new it could create the same symptoms so I thought I'd post for verification on my findings.

Waffle over, the symptoms:
==================

On the old ECU rotating the crank angle sensor manually, the 180deg timing is notmally 0v and goes to 5.11V on the hole. For the 1 deg timing it is normally 4V and drops to about 1V but I couldn't gently get it to hold there and it always goes straight back to 4V. Quickly rotating the sensor and it averages 2.3V. All cylinders and injectors fire in order etc.

On the New ECU doing the same, the 180 deg timing works fine on the multimeter as before but the 1deg timing is normally 5.11V again rather than 4V and does drop to around 1V being gentle but turning it quickly averages 2.75V.

My thinking is there are 2 photo diodes and A to D converters in the CAS and the ones for the 1deg signal is rounding off the pulses. I'm, also guessing the 180deg time (That on inspection looks like 90deg) is used for calculating engine rpm and that explains why the RPM reading has always worked fine.

Can anyone verify what I'm thinking before I start just swapping bits that may or may not give me any good information.

Also, I read a new CAS is £462 from Nissan!!! Are there another new alternatives like Blueprint etc. Can the old ones be re-conned?

Thanks for reading,
Jim
 
A

AJ4

Guest
Do you have access to a scope, to have a look at the CAS output ?

Have you looked at the output of the CAS on its own, just to confirm its operation ? ( without the ECU connected ). I think you can just connect a positive feed and it should work standalone, ie, you can spin the engine and look at the output, without the ecu affecting it. Might be worth a try anyway.
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
AJ4 said:
Do you have access to a scope, to have a look at the CAS output ?

Have you looked at the output of the CAS on its own, just to confirm its operation ? ( without the ECU connected ). I think you can just connect a positive feed and it should work standalone, ie, you can spin the engine and look at the output, without the ecu affecting it. Might be worth a try anyway.
Thanks Ross. I wish I had a scope as I think it would answer all my questions in one fell swoop. Not sure if I can borrow one from work, some of the guys might have a posh "Fluke" in their desks so it might be worth asking.

Do you know what electronics the CAS uses? I'm guessing, a transformer to drop to 5V and some kind of filter to give a decent square wave pulse on the output. If the filter has failed or the photo diode has a problem, could it be that the CAS is sending out a sine wave rather than a square wave if its failed?
 
A

AJ4

Guest
I haven't really looked into the CAS on the Pulsar, but I'd guess its just a photo diode/transistor. The output from it can only be on / off, ie a square wave. If it output a sinewave, then in theory you could slowly rotate it and get a slowly varying signal, instead of a hard switching on / off.

Its possible that something is gone wrong in the PFC causing a mismatch, and its dragging the square wave down ?

I've got a scope you can use if your anywhere near Portsmouth :D
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
LOL. I'm near the sea if that helps but about 6 hours from Portsmouth.

From what you're saying if the transistor has broken down then that might explain a sine wave rather than square wave.

My CAS is off the car at the moment and no matter how gentle I am, I can't find the 0V of the 1Deg signal. If its a square wave then it must be there but if a sine then I guess not?

Best get looking into sourcing one then :(


Thanks again.
Jim
 
A

AJ4

Guest
No, you should only have a square wave or nothing.

You might get something like a sinewave if the transistor is breaking down early and conducting when it shouldn't, it won't actually be a sine wave though. Sine wave is probably the wrong term to use anyway, as its a varying DC pulse and not really a wave :D

If it was a sine wave ( a square wave with rounded corners because the transistor is fecked ? ) then you should still get zero when it in the 'off' mode.

I'll try and find some specs on the CAS, as I'm not too familiar with how the system works on the Pulsar ( one of the few things that hasn't broken yet :D:D:D )
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
Thanks Ross, really appreciated. I'll try to borrow that fluke today at work.

I realised the sine wave was para-phrasing :wink: 8)

For the 1deg signal, maybe the corners have become so rounded the metal (rather than slot) is around 0.5mm but the with the gearing from the centre it is almost impossible to find that 0V.
 
O

Odin

Guest
Would you two f*cker speak English please :shock: :shock: .

This whole thread has gone so far over my head its landed on mars :shock: :? .





rob
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
I thought we were keeping it simple in terms of terminology for the general readership too LMFAO :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quick summary for the non geeks:

Jim: I think my Crank angle sensor is fecked
Ross: Yes, Jim, it does sound a bit fecked to me
Jim: In deed Ross you are right, it does sound fecked
Ross: I will endevour to find out more information for you.
Jim: Thank you Ross, most kind. I will borrow some equipment from work to check the degree of feckedness.

:wink:
 

paz

Active Member
campbellju said:
I thought we were keeping it simple in terms of terminology for the general readership too LMFAO :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quick summary for the non geeks:

Jim: I think my Crank angle sensor is fecked
Ross: Yes, Jim, it does sound a bit fecked to me
Jim: In deed Ross you are right, it does sound fecked
Ross: I will endevour to find out more information for you.
Jim: Thank you Ross, most kind. I will borrow some equipment from work to check the degree of feckedness.

:wink:
That bad eh :shock: :lol:

Paz
 
A

AJ4

Guest
From a 350Z -

"The crank angle shaft rotates a disc with slits in it. There 2 sets of slits. According to the manual, the outer set on the disc contains 360 slits, the inner set 6 slits. There are 2 LEDs on one side of the disc, and 2 photo diodes on the other side of the disc. As the disc rotates, it interrupts the light beams between the LEDs & photo diodes, producing a pulse stream, which is fed to the ECU via 2 separate wires as 1 degree signal and 120 degree signal. There's also some electronics in the crank angle senor which squares up the pulses from the photo diode for the ECU."

From another site -

"TESTING AN L.E.D. TRIGGER - identified by having battery power & ground to drive the trigger, and usually a 5v output from the computer is switched off & on (which the computer will read as a rising or falling voltage to initiate the trigger). Generally LED systems are used in a crank angle sensor (CAS) which is usually a black plastic device inserted into a distributor and containing 2 signal outputs resulting in a total of 4 wires. Nissan & Isuzu are the main users of the LED system. Basically a thin metal plate is attached to the distributor shaft. This plate has slots cut in the surface to allow the LED to shine through to a receiver which indicates top dead centre, the number of cylinders or the position of the crank shaft. With the female 4-pin harness plug removed from the sensor, test each of the 4 wires of the female plug with KOEO. You should have 12v power (usually from an efi relay), 0v ground (from main earth), and two 5v outputs from the ECU - if not then go and find out why. Note; when the plug is attached to the CAS, back probing these 2 outputs can give incorrect readings depending on the location of the slots. Remove the distributor from the engine, earth out the distributor body against the engine, and with the harness plug reattached, back-probe the 2 signal voltages (the 5v signals). For each rotation of the distributor shaft, expect one signal to switch off & on equal to the number of cylinders and the other to either switch once or 360 times. The switching should be a clean 5v on then 0.0v off. A lab-scope will confirm the quality and shape of the signal outputs."

Another -

"Optical triggering has seen very little use by automotive manufacturers (one or two years of the Nissan Sentra come to mind). The basic construction is an infrared LED (Light Emitting Diode) facing a phototransistor separated by a small gap. Thru this gap a slotted wheel passes which alternately blocks and un-blocks the light, generating position information. Since light will pass through a very narrow slot, a high degree of positional accuracy can be obtained. So why doesn't everybody use this method?

A couple of reasons, the optics of the LED and phototransistor must be kept fairly clean, particularly as the windows in the trigger wheel get smaller. Failure ranges from a subtle timing shift to complete inoperability. Also, LED's and phototransistors that are rated for the automotive temperature range are not available in low cost (required in cost sensitive applications)."

Hope that helps.
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
I can hear the sound of people's heads exploding all over the GTIROC :lol: :lol:

That is perfect though Ross, it really cleared up what I've been thinking. I have been able to borrow a posh portable fluke as well so can find out more tonight :)

Pop, there goes another head
 

Nigell_d6

New Member
Nice one Ross,

I think you have covered everything, in one way or another !!!, nice reading.

I have a complete distributer in the garage if you would like it sent up as a comparison, but it will need checking as I got it from a 'working' damaged car and have never used or checked it, if you still feel that yours is caput.

Regards

Nigel
 

campbellju

Moderators
Staff member
Thanks for the offer Nigel, to save hassle, I'll speak nicely to a local owner from here who always been helpful in the past.

I'll feed back what I can find out with the scope. unfortunately this one doesn't have an image capture but I can always scribble a drawing.
 
Top