to know the truth on the dump valve . dangerous ??

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paolo_GTIR

Guest
Hello has all,

I put myself a question about the dump valve... would be more harmful than beneficial to pose an atmospheric dump on a car having a stock recir dump (like S14 or GTiR) .

According to certain person of our forum,

to pose an atmospheric dump can

1 - to destroy catalyst.

because the engine would turn too RICH to releasing foot... because the ECU believe that the expelled air is back towards the intake

2 - to destroy the engine (to bore the pistons) because the ECU would not manage to make a correct mixture... because it is "to mislead" by the MAF which gives him bad information. The mixture would be or too "rich person" or too "poor" but never correct.

thank you to deliver opinions to me... because several opinions are better than one...

Paolo

Moved to Tuning - FAST GUY
 
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AJ4

Guest
lol, i think i kind of understood that :D

there is a problem with some dump valves that bleed in air when not on boost ( ie under vacuum ) that is unmetered, ie not came through the AFM. That can cause the engine to run lean. Usually that is not a problem because at that point the engine is decelerating and fuel is cut off anyway.

Personally, i've never heard of anyone having a problem with atmospheric dump valves, other than having them break and stick shut / open, but not any metering problems.

If you buy a twin stage dump valve or one of a reasonable manufacturer you shouldn't have any problems.
 

Davey

New Member
i think running an atmos d/v can cause the car to run rich(er), thats why a lot of people with gooses etc get a lot of pops, bangs and flames when running a d/v. As for it doing any damage, seems unlikely tbh, it would have to be very rich to do anything 2 the engine, except maybe make the economy even worse :?
Dunno about the cat, cos there's hardly ant1 over here who has one, do you have to have one in france by law? If not, get rid of it m8, its blasphemy to have one on an 'R anyway :wink:
 

geetee

Active Member
wtf?

The only time it is going to 'run rich' is when ur changing gear during hard acceleration... so u get a bit of unburnt fuel down the exhaust... hence bangs, pops and flames.... doesn't do any harm.

Any other time it makes no difference as it's closed... just like the stock recirc valve.

Obviously if it's a single piston DV leaking air when it shouldn't then that's another matter.

Cheers
GeeTee 8)

Any other time it makes no difference.
 

Davey

New Member
wtf?

The only time it is going to 'run rich' is when ur changing gear during hard acceleration... so u get a bit of unburnt fuel down the exhaust... hence bangs, pops and flames.... doesn't do any harm.
Ye, thats what i was trying to say :? :D
 

Fast Guy

Moderators
Staff member
the chief said:
The tubby shaft still dies faster with a DV, coz its still spinning during gear changes.
:?:

Why would the turbo spinning (like it's designed to do) with the engine running kill it faster?

The whole idea of a dump valve is that it's supposed to dump boost (and keep the turbo spinning at speed) when you close the throttle instead off letting it build up in what would be (in effect) a closed system and very quickly stall the turbo, that is when the shaft is more likely to be damaged especially on higher boost engines

As for the rich running, then I guess is the afm tells the ecu that so much air is going in, but some of it is actually being bled off to atmoshere then it will run rich momenterily, but I doubt it will do any harm.

Maybe the guys who have one fitted can shed some light.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Hi,

The above message from Paolo is just a message from someone trying to stir touble.It happens that this message is directed against me.

I unfortunalety know Paolo, and at one point I even considered him close enough to start a company with him. The day I offered him to do that would have been better if I'd broke my leg and got a car crash.
From this unpleasant experience, I'm still short of a couple hundred dollars that he owe me, and a 300Zx TT engine with a blown hedgasket. That's life....
And I wouldn't trut him to change a spark plug, not even a bulb on one of my cars (based on a real, personal experience)


About the BOV.

I have been driving a 300ZX TT since 1994, and I now have three of them.
One of them is stock, one of them has 400hp, the last one has over 500hp, and I have another damaged one as "spare parts car"

During the last 10 years, I had a Supra Turbo (MKIII), 2 Subarus Legacy Turbo, One Mazda 323 GT, one Celica GT4. one Lexus, one Dodge Stealth.
I personnaly tuned all these cars, and I most of the maintenance myself. I drive more than 200miles per day, so I go through quite a few cars every year

Initially, I wanted to install BOV on my first 300ZXTT, and I started to have serious problems as soon as the BOVs were installed.

To solve the problem, I fitted my car with a portable PC, an AD/DA acquisition card (I'm an Engineer in computers), and I started to log almost every possible signal from the car, and I started to drive.
It turns out that I was mostly running too rich, but I was sometimes running abnormally lean. It was typically while doing an upshift, full boost

Just for the fun, I refitted the stock recirc valves, and all the problems were gone, put the BOVs back in there

Here's what happened.
When the BOV would open, air would escape, and the car would run too rich.(that was expected).
At the same time, if I lifted the accelerator, the car would re-enter close loop, detect an abnormal rich condition, and compensate for it. If at this point I would re-accelerate, then the ECU would go to open loop, but STILL compensating for the overrich condition, causing the engine to run lean for a couple seconds.

Because I doubted the results of both the O2 Sensors(I was reading less than 0.2 v while I was expecting to see more than 0.7), I started to monitor the injector signal, and indeed the amount of fuel delivered to each engine bank wouldn't be enough (based on the AFM / RPM / boost).
Then I wanted to see if the problem was based on the narrow band O2 sensors, so I fitted one wideband O2 sensor to my car.

The wide band sensor confirmed the above, while I was expecting to read between 1 to 1.5v, I was reading in excess of 3v (in case you don't know wide and narrow O2 do not deliver the same signal), I was terribly too lean.
I monitored my detonation sensor signal, and I was indeed experiencing moderate to heavy detonation, certainly NOT something I'd like to see in MY engine.

I was logging this condition 5 to 6 times a day (on my 200 miles journey), so it won't destroy the engine in a flash, but it would seriously reduce the life of the pistons/rings

I had a real close look at the Eprom Code stored in the ECU (M205AFM7 & 8, stock Nissan Tunes), and went through all the fuel tables, VQ tables, etc etc etc, but I could see NOTHING that would prevent this condition.

I had several discussion with Jim Wolf himself to discuss about the above.

Basically, JWT position is : The stock recircs are good for a 600/800 HP...no need to replace them, if you go above, it's not really a street car anymore, BOVs may not the the primary reliability factor in such a car.

As soon as I refitted the stock recirc, the too rich/too lean condition vanished.

Because I knew that my subaru ECU was made by the same mfg than the Nissan one (JECS), I hacked the stock recirc on my Legacy, and I started to datalog, and I could see the same behaviour...even if it seems that anti-detonation procedures on the Subaru are much more effective than in the Nissan (no NVCS here)

A couple years later, I had to help a friend on a 3000GT ... it was fitted with a BOV....I started to datalog (this time, I could use a Palm IIIc), and I could see the same behaviour. The nice part about the 3S ecu, it that it gives you the Knock Count, so it was easier to see detonation.

Of course, as soon as we replaced the stock recirc with another one (from a DSM), all the problems were gone.

I'm not saying it's the same on a Pulsar/Sunny engine, I never had the opportunity to drive and log one every day for a week, would be an interesting project, I just happen to know that a BOV can spell trouble on a SR20DET engine, and I had a serious look at the electronics of a Sunny GTI-R that delivers a little bit above 330hp at the wheels. The ECU is made by JECS, and I had a look at the electronics, nothing drastically different from the ECU of a 300ZXTT.

Based on that, you draw your own conclusions. If you want to enjoy a cool sound, just do it. If you happen to have to rebuild the engine, you'll know why
Now if you want to enjoy the car for a LONG time, you do what you think is best for it..after all, it's your car...

On MY cars, if there's no recirc, I may consider adding a BOV (but I'll probably try to add a recirc, as you can buy one dirt cheap on e-bay), and if the car is fitted with a recirc, I will NOT put a BOV on it at any cost, as recircs are easy to upgrade, and do what they're designed for.
 

Fast Guy

Moderators
Staff member
vg30dett said:
When the BOV would open, air would escape, and the car would run too rich.(that was expected).
At the same time, if I lifted the accelerator, the car would re-enter close loop, detect an abnormal rich condition, and compensate for it. If at this point I would re-accelerate, then the ECU would go to open loop, but STILL compensating for the overrich condition, causing the engine to run lean for a couple seconds.
It sounds like the problems are caused by bad programming in the the ecu?? ie not recognising the change in conditions that accelerator has been pressed again and it doesn't need to compensate for the rich running anymore. :?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Fast Guy said:
vg30dett said:
When the BOV would open, air would escape, and the car would run too rich.(that was expected).
At the same time, if I lifted the accelerator, the car would re-enter close loop, detect an abnormal rich condition, and compensate for it. If at this point I would re-accelerate, then the ECU would go to open loop, but STILL compensating for the overrich condition, causing the engine to run lean for a couple seconds.
It sounds like the problems are caused by bad programming in the the ecu?? ie not recognising the change in conditions that accelerator has been pressed again and it doesn't need to compensate for the rich running anymore. :?
I had a look at this one, but my TPS signal was completely correct, and the programming was the stock one...so not a mistake from a personal code.
The same portion of the code is used over & over again, in all kind of tunes...and the same code works perfectly with the recircs.

So, there might be a possibility to change one or two subroutines here & there, but is it worth the effort ?
 

Fast Guy

Moderators
Staff member
vg30dett said:
I had a look at this one, but my TPS signal was completely correct, and the programming was the stock one...so not a mistake from a personal code.
I did mean the factory ecu, not one you had programmed. :)
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Fast Guy said:
vg30dett said:
I had a look at this one, but my TPS signal was completely correct, and the programming was the stock one...so not a mistake from a personal code.
I did mean the factory ecu, not one you had programmed. :)
Hummm, I totally understand, but I wouldn't call it a bad programming.
The stock programming is designed around AFM without any air leaks, and it indeed works perfectly with the AFM and no air leaks. If you install a BOV, you change the running conditions, and the ECU cannot adapt to them.

After all, you wouldn't be surprised if the stock ECU would have problems runnig the engine with 2 additional cylinders, a different displacement, or a pair of turbos, would you ?
 
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Olly

Guest
Interesting but is a lean mixture off wide open throttle really a concern? cos bear in mind the mixture when in closed loop or at idle or when cruising at part throttle. I have watched/data logged my cars lambda voltage when drivern hard, full throttle dump at 1.3 bar then full throttle in next gear still well past 1.0 volt. :)
 

Jobi Joba

Member
vg30dett said:
It happens that this message is directed against me.
and me... :?

vg30dett said:
I unfortunalety know Paolo, and at one point I even considered him close enough to start a company with him. The day I offered him to do that would have been better if I'd broke my leg and got a car crash.
From this unpleasant experience, I'm still short of a couple hundred dollars that he owe me, and a 300Zx TT engine with a blown hedgasket. That's life....
And I wouldn't trut him to change a spark plug, not even a bulb on one of my cars (based on a real, personal experience)
err...just lol !!!
 
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paolo_GTIR

Guest
VG30DETT

1: I do not owe myself 1 dollards... with the money which you gained on my back with the parts that I bought... it to you is almost YOU who owe me about it...

2: This post was not an attack against you... but just to find of another opinion that hold it.

3: the engine about which you... it speaks was MY engine... if I do not
want to give it to you it is MY right...

4: I will be coarse... thus I will keep silent myself.

Jobi

You should not speak about thing which you do not know... and also not to suck VG more... that will give you mouth ulcers
 
Z

zooloo

Guest
I think what the "the chief" is trying to say,is that you will be slightly increase wear on the shaft with the BOV. Yes the turbo is designed like that, but with it still spinning during gaer changes its still might wear faster (in stead of it lasting 85000 miles it might last 75000)Maybe I dont know what im talking about. :oops:
 

Jobi Joba

Member
paolo_GTIR said:
Jobi

You should not speak about thing which you do not know... and also not to suck VG more... that will give you mouth ulcers
je ne parle que de ce qui me concerne...et pour VG,c'est un ami,et j'ai pas à le sucer...puisque qd on parle méca on est svt d'acc...
 

Curtis

Member
Laisse la subsistance la conversation en anglais et l'améliore
toujours en arrière sur la matière. Si vous trois voulez parler
entre eux puis employez la fonction de PM. pour pour ne pas laver
votre blanchisserie sale l'en public.

Merci :wink:
 
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