R35 GTR or Ford Lightning MAF (and mapping)

[fubar andy]

Well I've had the car back on the road after its rebuild (again) and nicely running it in, however its has to come back off due to some oil leaks and other minor issues.

Started the car up today (after it being fixed) and it runs like a bag of poop, black (fuel) smoke from the rear, popping and banging and very poor idle.

After a hook up to the Nistune the AFM fault code is on and the (cheap shitty Chinese eBay) Z32 has died. A new one from Nissan is mega bucks £300+.

(Although "Genuine" unit from Oz - minus import tax etc)

"Genuine Z32"

So I'm thinking of installing a Ford Lightning MAF instead, as the Nistune has it listed (700bhp - not that I need that) but I could also move it as a "blow through" system and genuine items are much much cheaper too! (bonus!)

I'm trying to find out if anyone else has done this before or had much success, what to look out for and any advice that could help me when I try and install one and whether I'll have any mapping issues?

(I'm looking to buy genuine Ford item here not more Chinese crap from eBay)

HOWEVER...the Nistune also offers the MAF from the R35 GTR as an option and there are plenty of those on sale at the moment too.

Not only that I could install that as a "blow through" system too!

Example: (GTR MAF)

GTR eBay Link

Example: Hardpipe

eBay hardpipe

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated here, perhaps we can find a better solution?

 

[PobodY]

I'd go with the R35 MAF... then you don't have to have any Ford parts on your car.

 

[campbellju]

Andy, I think I went with this company for my M3 MAF though it was a while ago

Emission Controls

Many MAF sensors will read 0-5V and could be made to work. Pick a MAF with a close match to your MAX aiflow. It helps with idle/cruise/low load mapping where you'll have more resolution

 

[gtir_pimp]

Hi Andy, sorry I didn't get back to your pm, my time has been extremely limited on here as I'm snowed under with work and coming up to Xmas everyone wants everything done before so I've been working all the hours God sends.

Eat, sleep, work, repeat!

Anyways, I have sold the rear brakes you were after and someone is coming to look at buying a lot of bits from my car on the weekend but I have a z32 which I've been using as a blow by if this other guy doesn't have it and your interested? It's genuine and not eBay or Chinese shite. Let me know and I will try and reply asap.
It has the plug and I have cut the plate of that used to hold the air filter so I could join it with a silicone coupling

 

[fubar andy]

Ok, so I'm struggling to get hold of a Z32 sensor, the place you suggested Jim cant find anything on their database because either the part numbers are out of date or it's an "import" and then they can't find it! *head in hands*

I might take you up on the Z32 Aron, but I'm also keen to see if the R35 GTR air flow sensor could work?

Part numbers wise, I've offered the Nissan part number: 22680-30P00
and the model number: 0986JG0309 which non have worked

I've also offered the Bosch number: F00E000202 and again they can't seem to find it.

Jim you mention:

Pick a MAF with a close match to your MAX aiflow. It helps with idle/cruise/low load mapping where you'll have more resolution

Do you mean pick a AFM that will be close to the max flow/bhp that I will need, if so then the R35 AFM will flow to around 400wbhp.

I take that would be a much more suitable option than a Z32 (and being more modern)?

Check out this thread on the Nistune forum: Nistune Forums ? View topic - R35 GTR MAF, HPX MAF testing

From what I am making out that the Z32 makes better bhp, but for <400bhp mongs like myself, the R35 GTR MAF would be a good option and also compatible with the Nistune!

Could I be on to something here, where we can use (Nistune) R35 MAF's instead of Z32's

I'm not a MAF whizz, but if anyone is willing to help me, I'm keen to test this out and see if it works?

 

[shroom]

Would Ed at Fusion be able to shed some light on this? might be worth giving him a call

 

[fubar andy]

Would Ed at Fusion be able to shed some light on this? might be worth giving him a call

Possibly, but I'd like the info to be on the forum rather than a phone call so that everyone can see what's happening and possibly get involved.

If Ed has anything to add I'd be very interested so see what he posts up?

 

[campbellju]

Not clear enough for me without more practical experience. All the sensors have 5V to play with, the voltage read at any given air flow is dependent on it's calibration and the housing.

Assuming a standard housing, the standard R35 MAF is capable of 750hp. At idle the 3.8l twin turbo may need twice the airflow to idle properly. If you have half the airflow the resolution may not be great at the low end making it difficult to map a smooth idle/cruise/low load etc.

The Q45 MAF's weren't great for our cars as they had quite a linear response for a V8 car with a high air flow at idle and a poor maximum.

Don't get me wrong, we are talking shades of grey here, I bet you could map the car with the GTR MAF.

What does the new Golf GTR use? that's a 400hp 2l car.

Easiest route forward is still a Z32 for you. The 300ZX was a UK car so there should be a UK part number somewhere.

 

[fubar andy]

From what I've read the standard housing for the GTR isn't good enough when the power is increased, so "tuners" seem to remove the MAF and install it into a bigger diameter pipe so they trick it and run more power.

I know AMS offer a uprated MAF but that is over a grand!

With regards to idle the Nistune offers adjustment for the GTR MAF and you can adjust the diameter of the pipe to suit.

Slot style sensors may be used in larger tube sizes to increase maximum MAF range.
When this is done (or the load measuring range of the sensor is more than required for the vehicle), then custom VQ maps are required. They are also more resistant to reversion having out flow vents on the sides of the sensor.
Nistune has now added a VQ translation function generator.
It creates custom VQ maps based from these sensor types.

Example:
S14 SR20 when resizing to a HPXN1 MAF, the airflow measurement of the MAF (from S14 MAF 330hp flow to HPXN1 MAF 1460hp flow) results in an increase of 4.4x the original load of the S14 MAF

Normally during a MAF resize, K constant would then be multiplied by 4x4: K constant of 33,000 x 4.4 = 146,000

This is outside the range of the Nissan ECU and also affects the load scaling of every item in the ECU making the HPXN1 unusable for most Nissans

Using the transfer function generator we can shorten the load measurement required by the ECU and reduce the total load multiplier:

PDF LINK:
http://nistune.com/docs/Nistune%20MAF%20Tech%20Notes.pdf

Although it might be easier to just run a Z32, there seems to be some information/forums that are positive about the R35 MAF, and not only that all the motor spare shops I've spoken to say they can't find MAF's for UK reg'd cars (which seems odd or they cba to help)

Have a read at the PDF Jim, see if that sheds more light on the situation



Edit* I did speak to Ed about the R35 and he says that the MAF from one of those would be only flow to about 320bhp, which is pointless for me if that's the case.

However I'll have a word with VW and see if they can supply a MAF from their 400R car and check the voltage details etc.

EDIT AGAIN:

Golf R is 297bhp and the 400R is not available at present

 

[fubar andy]

...and to add to this how do "tuners" take a golf R with 300bhp, bolt on a few mods, yet the MAF is standard and they can make 400bhp?

 

[campbellju]

Post 2: The same way we can take a 220hp Sunny and bolt on a few mods and make a 330hp Sunny ;-) The MAF might be maxed out at that point and the same might be true for the Golf.

Post 1: Sorry for not checking first, it was late, it looks like you are onto something. For the R35 MAF, I just checked my understanding of what's going on as the facts in the Nistune article didn't match the other general GTR info out there.

Key point I had misunderstood is the GTR uses 2 MAF's for each intake manifold, I'd assumed it was like the 300ZX with one big one. This means each one is capable of measuring around 375hp in a standard GTR housing. As the housing is part of the GTR's intake system I'm not clear what a standard housing looks like but it's academic.

This experiment all makes sense now:

Nistune Forums ? View topic - R35 GTR MAF, HPX MAF testing

The sensor's themselves look very similar to other ones used in modern cars that are drop in sensors rather than integrated units. These are more robust and manage air flow better than the old Z32 designs. It might make an improvement to air flow but it would be marginal. Not worth replacing a Z32 for but probably a better starting point.

A Z32 housing hacked up to accommodate the GTR MAF might work. Alternatively a piece of 80mm drain pipe hacked around to accommodate the MAF looks like it would get you over the 400hp mark.

If we can make a GM MAF work with a PFC then this should be straightforward to fettle.

 

[fubar andy]

...still on with this.

Did some costings up and fabrication work/plans to run a R35 MAF in a 80mm pipe.

So for so good...

Need to get hold of a GTR MAF harness and wiring diagram.

 

[campbellju]

Nice one Andy, I'm away tomorrow for a week or so but will look out for this and we can catch up when I'm back

 

[fubar andy]

Ok bit of an update.

I've now collated all the parts to make a blow though MAF system, barring two items.

First thing is I need to find somewhere they stocks "weld in slotted MAF flanges"

Anyone know somewhere I can get hold of them (UK based) that's not a ripoff merchant?


Secondly I'm trying to acquire a R35 GTR MAF plug connector but they seen to be a little tricky to source, and no trader/spare parts person will snip off the OEM connector for me to use. So I'm currently trying to find a connector that will plug into (compatable) into the GTR MAF. (If not then I'll crudlely wire it into the MAF and seal it with silicone or glue.

 

[campbellju]

Can't help with the mounting boss. For the connector I'd look at using spade connectors onto the MAF that you silicon in as you suggest or shrink wrap if you want it less permanent. On the other end of the wires you can put whatever connector you have available for easy disconnection in the future.